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and now in paris

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  • Davo55 said:

    I just read through this whole thread. Apart from a few comments which let it down a little, this is an amazing example of the ability of the collective CL family to debate extremely emotive issues with insight, empathy and restraint. Hats off to all of you who have contributed.

    I have very little to add, except in relation to:

    Only a matter of time before it happens here, and it will happen here.

    A couple of people have pointed out that it already has. But, just to add, we will never know how many planned terrorist attacks on and within the UK have been prevented by our security forces, The intelligence services and, presumably, Special Branch will have been working very hard on our behalf to identify and nullify threats and I for one am very grateful for the job they do in protecting our rights and freedoms. Same goes for the police in general, who will be in the front line in the event of any attack.

    RIP to those that died. Vive la France. Vive la liberté.
    I think the intelligence services by and large do an excellent job. I am more than happy to have my emails (often pointless ramblings anyway) to be read if it means a few less people die. I also approve of police powers to stop and search people at their own discretion, despite the obvious tension this might create
  • edited January 2015
    Online Muslim have commented thus;-
    Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris's Seine-Saint-Denis northern suburb, has vehemently condemned the attack.

    "I am extremely angry. These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to hell," he told Reuters on Wednesday, January 7.

    “This is not freedom. This is not Islam and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this.”

    The Arab League and Al Azhar, Sunni Islam's most prestigious center of learning, both condemned a deadly attack Wednesday on a Paris satirical newspaper.

    "Arab League chief Nabil Al Arabi strongly condemns the terrorist attack on Charlie Hebdo newspaper in Paris," the League statement was quoted by The Gulf Today.

    Al Azhar condemned the "criminal attack," saying that "Islam denounces any violence," in remarks carried by Egypt's state news agency Mena.

    In a separate statement to AFP, Al Azhar senior official Abbas Shoman said the institution "does not approve of using violence even if it was in response to an offence committed against sacred Muslim sentiments."

    Scholar Too

    Along with Muslim organizations, scholars from around the world have expressed sorrow, sharing prayers to the families of the victims.

    “In fact, Muslim communities all over the world share the pains and sadness with the victims’ families and friends. Our hearts bleed for their loss and pains,” Dr. Wael Shihab, who has a PhD in Islamic Studies from Al-Azhar University, told OnIslam.net.

    “The deadly attack on the Paris office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which led to the killing and injuring of tens of innocents, is a horrible and barbaric crime that its perpetrators should be held accountable for it.

    “Such crimes against humanity are not justified in Islam or world faiths. Those criminals cannot be true believers of any faith,” he added.

    The Muslim scholar added that killing is a heinous crime that is totally rejected in Islam.

    “Charlie Hebdo attacks are totally divorced from the teachings of Islam, its general spirit, and its sublime objectives. Islam protects people’s lives, properties, and honor,” Dr. Shehab said.

    “Attacking even a single human is regarded by Islam as grave and heinous as killing all innocent people of the world. The Qur’an reads, {Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.} (Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)”

    Dr. Tariq Ramadan, a world-renowned Muslim thinker, has posted an angry tweet against the attack.

    “Contrary to what was apparently said by the killers in the bombing of Charlie Hebdo’s headquarters, it is not the Prophet who was avenged, it is our religion, our values and Islamic principles that have been betrayed and tainted,” he tweeted.

    “My condemnation is absolute and my anger is profound (healthy and one thousand times justified) against this horror!!!

    “Allow me to express my deep sympathy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims.”
  • Addickted said:

    WayneK said:

    One of the coppers shot was a Muslim.

    On another note, one of my mates was working at Stratford tube station last week. Even though there was a queue the ticket office shut so all of them could pray to Mecca. Why is that tolerated?

    On another note, one of my Islamic chums was working at Wakefield Bus station last week. Even though there was a queue, the ticket office shut so all of the Yorkshirmen could have a tea break. Why is that tolerated?


    As if that happened
  • Without looking like i'm digging round for controversy, i just had a brief look at a random forum for muslims, http://www.ummah.com/forum/ which I came across from a google search.

    I find it remarkable that nobody is even discussing the incident in Paris yesterday. it is like it never happened. They do have time to discuss whether they are prepared to sacrifice their own child for the sake of God though

    Maybe they are in the areas where you need to be a member a bit like we have a members only section on here.

  • I'm pretty sure if a Charlton fan decided to murder 12 people we'd discuss it
  • colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    I said, i put it down to the Hindu guy being bias agianst Muslims.

    The worrying aspect was what i thought was far fetched has come to fruition.
  • RIP to French legends I had not Heard of the magazine before yesterday's terrible avents!
  • edited January 2015

    said why idid it and havnt flagged anyone in months and months go ask admin

    No you didn't and it was only three months ago.

    *Edit* Sorry AFKA, just saw your subsequent post. Now I have put the record straight by pointing out two falsehoods in one sentence, I'll shut up.
  • Sponsored links:


  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
  • put the record straight really ?
  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    That's not true either.

    Brevik wasn't a muslim

    Neither are the Real IRA

    Or ETA or FLNC (Basque and Corsican separatists)

    And that is without looking at the Christian far right attacks in the US.

    Fundamentalist Islam is a real threat and a real danger but it's far from being the only one.
  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    That's not true either.

    Brevik wasn't a muslim

    Neither are the Real IRA

    Or ETA or FLNC (Basque and Corsican separatists)

    And that is without looking at the Christian far right attacks in the US.

    Fundamentalist Islam is a real threat and a real danger but it's far from being the only one.
    The real IRA haven't actively partaken in any terrorist acts in recent times as far as I'm aware? I'm also unaware of what the ETA or FLNC are and if the attacks in America, but I understand te point you're making.
  • have a brief scan of the link below, just to gain an understanding of how much of this craziness is going on on a daily basis globally that the majority of us in the UK just real ly don't see reported. Had no idea the amount of terrorist unrest in places like Nigeria, for example.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2014
  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    I'd say that in the West (America mostly) more mass shootings and bombings are undertaken by Christians than Muslims. America has a huge problem with mass shootings by young impressionable Christians, which of course is swept under the rug as not an issue because they're not a minority.
  • have a brief scan of the link below, just to gain an understanding of how much of this craziness is going on on a daily basis globally that the majority of us in the UK just real ly don't see reported. Had no idea the amount of terrorist unrest in places like Nigeria, for example.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2014

    Interesting, only read of the ones carried out in January so far but it seems a lot of them are carried out by Muslims?

    colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    I'd say that in the West (America mostly) more mass shootings and bombings are undertaken by Christians than Muslims. America has a huge problem with mass shootings by young impressionable Christians, which of course is swept under the rug as not an issue because they're not a minority.
    Are they done in the name of their religion? I'm unaware of all this so am curious to find out.

    IMO religion is one of the main reasons war and conflict happen and if I had it my way I'd do away with it and attacks like these carried out in the name of Christianity and the same attacks carried out in the name of Islam back my view on religion up.
  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    As others have used the analogy previously. Say there was a hooligan firm who smashed up a town. Wouldn't it be wrong to say they did so because they supported a particular football club? That's not to say there shouldn't be a discussion as to why such a group follow a particular team but you wouldn't have the root cause down to the football club.

    Whilst no analogy is perfect I think it's pretty close to the actual situation. Unfortunately we have lunatics willing to inflict pain and suffering on others. In all likelihood they would be inflicting pain and suffering on others if there wasn't a religion called Islam. It would just be carried out in someone else's name.

  • Here's the thing. It appears to you that all modern day terrorists are muslims, because you aren't living in areas where non-muslims commit terorist atrocities. For instance, try living in areas of Africa where the Lord's Resistance Army are kidnapping, raping and slaughtering schoolchildren. These people are no more 'Christian' than the fuckbags who killed the people in France are 'muslims'. Another thing most people fail singularly to understand is that far in excess of 99% of muslim terrorist outrages are committed against OTHER MUSLIMS.

    Another point to pick up on here is how you define 'modern day'. It's less than 20 years since thousands of muslims were murdered by 'Christians' in Bosnia, for instance.

    What seems to be the point here is that people are confusing what is happening in 'their' world with 'everywhere in the world'. It's entirely understandable - because that's what people see/are shown by the media - but it's this small-minded view of the world thatis a major contributing factor to the current situation. If people were minded to look further afield than their own tiny part of the world, they may get a broader perspective on things, which in turn may lead to a more global understanding of the problems that contribute to this kind of shit

    One final point that needs to be reinforced is one that has been trotted out countless times on this and other threads - namely people wondering aloud why 'more muslims aren't condemning this type of attack'. Quite apart from it being visibly demonstrated each time that muslim scholars and imams in fact ARE condemning these despicable acts, it's frankly quite insulting to expect people to do this in the name of a tiny percentage of lunatics/arseholes who distort their faith to suit their own ends. Why, for instance, was I not asked to come out and denounce Anders Breivik as 'unrepresentative of Christians' because I was baptised as such?

    There's also the possibility that 'normal' muslims are possibly a little bit afraid of walking around in the street shouting about terrorists. To draw a parallel, we've had threads on here in the past regarding people shouting racist abuse. Occasionally, when people have posted about it, there have been other posters telling them that 'if they didn't like it, they should have had a go back'. When it's pointed out that - due to the (ahem) 'character profile' of the pricks that usually do this, any response would probably result in them getting their heads caved in, there's never a reply.

    As other people have said - there IS no solution to this problem, other than to not be drawn into an entrenched 'let them all do what they like' or 'kill 'em all' position. The best solution to intolerance and hate is to talk. It always has been.

    Quality post - deserves much more than a 'like'.
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  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    Here's the thing. It appears to you that all modern day terrorists are muslims, because you aren't living in areas where non-muslims commit terorist atrocities. For instance, try living in areas of Africa where the Lord's Resistance Army are kidnapping, raping and slaughtering schoolchildren. These people are no more 'Christian' than the fuckbags who killed the people in France are 'muslims'. Another thing most people fail singularly to understand is that far in excess of 99% of muslim terrorist outrages are committed against OTHER MUSLIMS.

    Another point to pick up on here is how you define 'modern day'. It's less than 20 years since thousands of muslims were murdered by 'Christians' in Bosnia, for instance.

    What seems to be the point here is that people are confusing what is happening in 'their' world with 'everywhere in the world'. It's entirely understandable - because that's what people see/are shown by the media - but it's this small-minded view of the world thatis a major contributing factor to the current situation. If people were minded to look further afield than their own tiny part of the world, they may get a broader perspective on things, which in turn may lead to a more global understanding of the problems that contribute to this kind of shit

    One final point that needs to be reinforced is one that has been trotted out countless times on this and other threads - namely people wondering aloud why 'more muslims aren't condemning this type of attack'. Quite apart from it being visibly demonstrated each time that muslim scholars and imams in fact ARE condemning these despicable acts, it's frankly quite insulting to expect people to do this in the name of a tiny percentage of lunatics/arseholes who distort their faith to suit their own ends. Why, for instance, was I not asked to come out and denounce Anders Breivik as 'unrepresentative of Christians' because I was baptised as such?

    There's also the possibility that 'normal' muslims are possibly a little bit afraid of walking around in the street shouting about terrorists. To draw a parallel, we've had threads on here in the past regarding people shouting racist abuse. Occasionally, when people have posted about it, there have been other posters telling them that 'if they didn't like it, they should have had a go back'. When it's pointed out that - due to the (ahem) 'character profile' of the pricks that usually do this, any response would probably result in them getting their heads caved in, there's never a reply.

    As other people have said - there IS no solution to this problem, other than to not be drawn into an entrenched 'let them all do what they like' or 'kill 'em all' position. The best solution to intolerance and hate is to talk. It always has been.
    image
  • colthe3rd said:

    Addickted said:

    colthe3rd said:

    Jints said:


    We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.

    You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.

    Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
    You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
    Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.

    In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.

    None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.

    That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.

    colthe3rd said:

    When i was in my early twenties (a while ago)
    i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many
    muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population.
    He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's.
    i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe.
    That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few,
    Or else the silence will be deafening.
    Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.

    A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
    If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.

    Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.

    There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.

    Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
    All Muslims aren't terrorists and I think anyone who thinks they are is just ridiculous although all Muslims aren't terrorists, it appears that all modern day terrorists are Muslim and that is where a lot of people's issues and concerns with Islam stem from.
    Here's the thing. It appears to you that all modern day terrorists are muslims, because you aren't living in areas where non-muslims commit terorist atrocities. For instance, try living in areas of Africa where the Lord's Resistance Army are kidnapping, raping and slaughtering schoolchildren. These people are no more 'Christian' than the fuckbags who killed the people in France are 'muslims'. Another thing most people fail singularly to understand is that far in excess of 99% of muslim terrorist outrages are committed against OTHER MUSLIMS.

    Another point to pick up on here is how you define 'modern day'. It's less than 20 years since thousands of muslims were murdered by 'Christians' in Bosnia, for instance.

    What seems to be the point here is that people are confusing what is happening in 'their' world with 'everywhere in the world'. It's entirely understandable - because that's what people see/are shown by the media - but it's this small-minded view of the world thatis a major contributing factor to the current situation. If people were minded to look further afield than their own tiny part of the world, they may get a broader perspective on things, which in turn may lead to a more global understanding of the problems that contribute to this kind of shit

    One final point that needs to be reinforced is one that has been trotted out countless times on this and other threads - namely people wondering aloud why 'more muslims aren't condemning this type of attack'. Quite apart from it being visibly demonstrated each time that muslim scholars and imams in fact ARE condemning these despicable acts, it's frankly quite insulting to expect people to do this in the name of a tiny percentage of lunatics/arseholes who distort their faith to suit their own ends. Why, for instance, was I not asked to come out and denounce Anders Breivik as 'unrepresentative of Christians' because I was baptised as such?

    There's also the possibility that 'normal' muslims are possibly a little bit afraid of walking around in the street shouting about terrorists. To draw a parallel, we've had threads on here in the past regarding people shouting racist abuse. Occasionally, when people have posted about it, there have been other posters telling them that 'if they didn't like it, they should have had a go back'. When it's pointed out that - due to the (ahem) 'character profile' of the pricks that usually do this, any response would probably result in them getting their heads caved in, there's never a reply.

    As other people have said - there IS no solution to this problem, other than to not be drawn into an entrenched 'let them all do what they like' or 'kill 'em all' position. The best solution to intolerance and hate is to talk. It always has been.
    Excellent post of the year so far.
  • "As other people have said - there IS no solution to this problem, other than to not be drawn into an entrenched 'let them all do what they like' or 'kill 'em all' position. The best solution to intolerance and hate is to talk. It always has been."


    Excellent post but can't agree with your conclusion.

    There is a solution, the Reformation of Islam akin to the Christian Reformation of the 17th century. Pre Reformation normal folk were not even allowed to read the Bible in case they formed a view country to the views of the Church and commit heresy. There was no separation of politics and the church. So if the clergy or the monarch (appointed by God) told you what God wanted you to do you did it. Every medieval war was God's will, and soldiers thought they were doing God's will because God, in the form of their monarch, had told them.

    It is the same pre-Reformation culture that allows the multiplicity of Islamic ideology. Religious leaders with unquestionable authority in relaying Allah's will are able to impose their own perverse political agenda on believers. Islam does not allow believers' political views to prevail over the religious view. Until this changes and politics is allowed to intercede in modifying Islamic ideology, nothing will change. But that doesn't mean there is no solution, the solution is clear, it's modernisation of Islam.


  • Leroy - excellent post, couldn't have put it any better.
  • Don't know much about Twitter but this seems an appropriate response to me.

  • edited January 2015
    I see protests in Paris and London all in the name of freedom of speech and freedom of the press, on here we see the same but where were those voices when some of our number were imprisoned for singing a song on a train? Where are the protests about the continued detention in the embassy of Ecuador of Julian Assange. Jius sui Julian, Ich bin Assange?

    The duplicity of our leaders sticks in ones throat at time like these, freedom of speech and the right to offend died long ago with barely a whimper, it's time people awoke to that fact.
  • There's a massive difference between freedom of speech and illegal activity.
  • Loco said:

    I see protests in Paris and London all in the name of freedom of speech and freedom of the press, on here we see the same but where were those voices when some of our number were imprisoned for singing a song on a train? Where are the protests about the continued detention in the embassy of Ecuador of Julian Assange. Jius sui Julian, Ich bin Assange?

    The duplicity of our leaders sticks in ones throat at time like these, freedom of speech and the right to offend died long ago with barely a whimper, it's time people awoke to that fact.

    Wtf ?

  • What is the definition of terrorism ? I'm on a train so can't easily check - what makes something a terrorist act?
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