I wasn't defending Christianity when I posted that verse on the previous page - far from it (Sadie you can vouch for that, ha).
But i've seen various comments from people saying "oh why do people always blame religion for this, it is just some nutcases murdering people". My response to that is no, no it isn't - these attacks are motivated by religions - religions that make absolutely no sense and have no relevance to today's society.
I appreciate Mitchell's point of view, but I disagree. I would like someone to tell me with a straight face that the atroscities of 9/11, 7/7, Boston, Madrid and this morning's events were committed by men who purely used Islam as an 'excuse'.
why else did they do it? Of course they used their belief in islam as an excuse to kill people.
No I genuinely believe that these people think they are doing the right thing. It is not an excuse for them.
yes, and they use islam as a justification for doing the right thing.
excuse verb ɪkˈskjuːz,ɛk-/ 1. seek to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offence); try to justify. "he did nothing to hide or excuse Jacob's cruelty" synonyms: justify, defend, make excuses for, make a case for, explain (away), rationalize, condone, vindicate, warrant;
I understand that these discussion does need to be had but following a tragedy like this we should take a moment to stop and reflect.
Charb, one of the caricaturists killed today, said earlier, after receiving death threats: "I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit. It perhaps sounds a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than living on my knees."
I feel in these times his words are incredibly poignant.
R.I.P Charb and all those that have lost their lives today.
so where is Islam peaceful then ? Uk ?----------------7/7 etc USA ?--------------9/11 Thailand ? ----- fighting on the border for 30 years Malaysia ? ---- see above China ?-----the Wega (sic) issue Russia ?-----Chechnia Indonesia-----Bali Africa ?------200 kids kidnapped----hundreds dead in Embassy bombings--genocide of Christians in Dofha. Indian ?---Mombi Parkistan ?-----200 school kids dead Middle East ?-----the genocide of Christians etc etc etc etc
of course its not all Muslims but for feck say the "religion of peace" thats just utter bollox
Agreed.
The worst are the people who say 'they're not doing it in the name of Islam'
they are.
Today they were reportedly screaming 'the prophet has been avenged'
When they murdered Lee Rigby they were screaming 'Allah Akbar' or whatever it is. It is 100% religiously motivated
And when a Rangers or Celtic fan is viciously attacked by fans of the other team, what is that motivation, in your opinion?
Well you can't give equivalent examples of peaceful Islam can you? That's the point.
That's like someone saying cars are dangerous and listing loads of serious collisions and someone else saying the majority or car journeys are safe and the 1st saying well you don't hear stories about the safe ones.
Of course not the press reports mainly when things go wrong not when they go right. You're not going to hear about the good community projects, the charitable acts, the fundraising, the family events and all the happy clappy good things in national press but ask around and read local press, or even talk to local Muslims, look at children and mums going about their shopping, go and buy a kebab and get served with a smile.
the problem here isn't religious, it's economical. These are young men (and sometimes young women) who have been driven to commit these acts because they're poor, they have no purpose in their life. ISIS and extremism makes them feel special and gives them a purpose. Is it any wonder after george dubblya stopped investment into iraq and afghanistan's infrustructure the taliban and extremists made a swift come back? The entire afghanistan and iraq wars have been a brilliant illustration of how not to invade a country in the name of freedom. If you're going to remove a government, you need to have a lot of capital to be able to invest in the young people of those countries.
as @PragueAddick says, I wouldn't be surprised if these guys were from the paris suburbs, which can be lawless cesspits and no go areas for police. A breeding ground for extremism
Well you can't give equivalent examples of peaceful Islam can you? That's the point.
only algebra and lots of advanced mathematics have come through islam. Their healthcare was incredibly superior to ours in the west. In fact the arguement can be made (and is regularly cited by extremists) that islam was extremely peaceful before western meddling.
Many Muslims themselves accept that the reason they went from being the most advanced people on earth to not really do much in recent times is because of the power that Islamic leaders had/have and the oppressiveness that has ensued under the name of Islam.
The argument that outside meddling is to blame is a made up excuse though, conveniently missing out certain points of history. Many Christians going on Pilgrimage were being murdered in Muslim areas and that was the excuse for the first Crusades. The "Turks" weren't peaceful, they were a war mongering dictatorship seeking to expand their power and wealth. Islam wasn't spread all the way to Spain by them knocking on doors handing out leaflets. There's also a lot of destroyed Buddhist temples and centres of knowledge that are testament as to how it was spread through Asia without any influence of Christianity.
Well you can't give equivalent examples of peaceful Islam can you? That's the point.
That's like someone saying cars are dangerous and listing loads of serious collisions and someone else saying the majority or car journeys are safe and the 1st saying well you don't hear stories about the safe ones.
Of course not the press reports mainly when things go wrong not when they go right. You're not going to hear about the good community projects, the charitable acts, the fundraising, the family events and all the happy clappy good things in national press but ask around and read local press, or even talk to local Muslims, look at children and mums going about their shopping, go and buy a kebab and get served with a smile.
Sorry, my point was exactly yours Sadie. peaceful Islam does not got spoken about or highlighted - the atrocities do.
I understand that these discussion does need to be had but following a tragedy like this we should take a moment to stop and reflect.
Charb, one of the caricaturists killed today, said earlier, after receiving death threats: "I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit. It perhaps sounds a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than living on my knees."
I feel in these times his words are incredibly poignant.
R.I.P Charb and all those that have lost their lives today.
I agree, let's take a step back from arguing over Islam, religion, politics and the motivation of these nutters. Instead we should all stand together with the people of Paris, those who stand against acts of extremism and offer our support and sympathies to those affected at Charlie Hebdo today.
Well you can't give equivalent examples of peaceful Islam can you? That's the point.
That's like someone saying cars are dangerous and listing loads of serious collisions and someone else saying the majority or car journeys are safe and the 1st saying well you don't hear stories about the safe ones.
Of course not the press reports mainly when things go wrong not when they go right. You're not going to hear about the good community projects, the charitable acts, the fundraising, the family events and all the happy clappy good things in national press but ask around and read local press, or even talk to local Muslims, look at children and mums going about their shopping, go and buy a kebab and get served with a smile.
Sorry, my point was exactly yours Sadie. peaceful Islam does not got spoken about or highlighted - the atrocities do.
Well you can't give equivalent examples of peaceful Islam can you? That's the point.
only algebra and lots of advanced mathematics have come through islam. Their healthcare was incredibly superior to ours in the west. In fact the arguement can be made (and is regularly cited by extremists) that islam was extremely peaceful before western meddling.
Many Muslims themselves accept that the reason they went from being the most advanced people on earth to not really do much in recent times is because of the power that Islamic leaders had/have and the oppressiveness that has ensued under the name of Islam.
The argument that outside meddling is to blame is a made up excuse though, conveniently missing out certain points of history. Many Christians going on Pilgrimage were being murdered in Muslim areas and that was the excuse for the first Crusades. The "Turks" weren't peaceful, they were a war mongering dictatorship seeking to expand their power and wealth. Islam wasn't spread all the way to Spain by them knocking on doors handing out leaflets. There's also a lot of destroyed Buddhist temples and centres of knowledge that are testament as to how it was through Asia without any influence of Christianity.
the world in medieval times was incredibly bloody and gruesome, you're judging those days by today's morals. Fact is if you travelled ANYWHERE your life was at risk. Attacks on pilgrims was simply an excuse for the church to flex it's muscles.
I wasn't defending Christianity when I posted that verse on the previous page - far from it (Sadie you can vouch for that, ha).
But i've seen various comments from people saying "oh why do people always blame religion for this, it is just some nutcases murdering people". My response to that is no, no it isn't - these attacks are motivated by religions - religions that make absolutely no sense and have no relevance to today's society.
I appreciate Mitchell's point of view, but I disagree. I would like someone to tell me with a straight face that the atroscities of 9/11, 7/7, Boston, Madrid and this morning's events were committed by men who purely used Islam as an 'excuse'.
why else did they do it? Of course they used their belief in islam as an excuse to kill people.
No I genuinely believe that these people think they are doing the right thing. It is not an excuse for them.
Many do, but as usual many also see it as an opportunity for power and control. Mainly the ones that give the orders not the cannon fodder on the ground. Same as the IRA, UVF etc under the guise of politics, religion and defending themselves they became basically gangsters using their position to make money out of crime commanding power and control through fear even over "their own people".
I live with a muslim and two of my very good friends are Muslim too. Two of my friends follow Islam as much as I follow Christianity ie not at all apart from Christmas, they drink and smoke etc.
However the guy I live with, from brum, pakistani actually follows islam to a certain degree and I can assure you when followed correctly it is as peaceful religion as Christianity and mainly talks about being a good person. I have even accompanied him to the mosque on two occasions (granted as there was going to be free food) but it was as welcoming and friendly as we would expect a church to be.
These people committing these atrocities are very angry and deranged men, who have taken the Koran completely out of context and feel by committing these violent crimes in the name of Islam, they are somehow avenging their people and religion. When really a large majority of other Muslims around the world look at them the same way we do, as barbaric savages. It's pretty obvious that their anger is a result of some very questionable foreign policy over the last 20 years. Which is no excuse for them to be doing what they are doing, however blaming the whole muslim religion is certainly not the response that we need to take to combat these nutter's.
Tensions are high now, it happened in Paris, it could well have happened in London. These jihadi islamist's need to be stopped but frankly I can't see how at the moment.
the problem here isn't religious, it's economical. These are young men (and sometimes young women) who have been driven to commit these acts because they're poor, they have no purpose in their life. ISIS and extremism makes them feel special and gives them a purpose.
But this fails to explain what is happening in the developed world. I doubt those people who have gone to Syria from Britain and France are extremely poor. Most of them are well educated, are not short of money, and have generally had every opportunity in life open to them. The problem here clearly is religious.
Either way, lack of money can never be used to justify getting entangled with terrorist groups. There are also poor Christians in Iraq and Syria, yet they don't gun down non-Christians or set of bombs every few hours.
Well you can't give equivalent examples of peaceful Islam can you? That's the point.
only algebra and lots of advanced mathematics have come through islam. Their healthcare was incredibly superior to ours in the west. In fact the arguement can be made (and is regularly cited by extremists) that islam was extremely peaceful before western meddling.
Many Muslims themselves accept that the reason they went from being the most advanced people on earth to not really do much in recent times is because of the power that Islamic leaders had/have and the oppressiveness that has ensued under the name of Islam.
The argument that outside meddling is to blame is a made up excuse though, conveniently missing out certain points of history. Many Christians going on Pilgrimage were being murdered in Muslim areas and that was the excuse for the first Crusades. The "Turks" weren't peaceful, they were a war mongering dictatorship seeking to expand their power and wealth. Islam wasn't spread all the way to Spain by them knocking on doors handing out leaflets. There's also a lot of destroyed Buddhist temples and centres of knowledge that are testament as to how it was through Asia without any influence of Christianity.
the world in medieval times was incredibly bloody and gruesome, you're judging those days by today's morals. Fact is if you travelled ANYWHERE your life was at risk. Attacks on pilgrims was simply an excuse for the church to flex it's muscles.
I agree. I'm not judging then with now. But as you say the times were dangerous and bloody. That includes Islam and "The Turks". Islam was being spread (often as an excuse for personal power and wealth) using violence before the crusades started, so to say it was because of outside meddling is clearly wrong and just an excuse. There's no defence on either side, just denial and excuses.
Another thing to remember here is that France has a much greater integration problem than Britain. Watch almost any state-of-France drama and there will be an allusion to the problems of racism, anti-Islam and Islamic anti-Christian hatred - it will be a core motif of the film. There is a serious and ingrained psychological trauma concerning the presence of Islam in France that far exceeds our own - the problems mentioned above are far more widespread (see also France's abysmal anti-Semitism issues). Not that an atrocity like today's can ever be fully understood, but it is perhaps more nation-specific than it might at first seem.
the problem here isn't religious, it's economical. These are young men (and sometimes young women) who have been driven to commit these acts because they're poor, they have no purpose in their life. ISIS and extremism makes them feel special and gives them a purpose.
But this fails to explain what is happening in the developed world. I doubt those people who have gone to Syria from Britain and France are extremely poor. Most of them are well educated, are not short of money, and have generally had every opportunity in life open to them. The problem here clearly is religious.
Either way, lack of money can never be used to justify getting entangled with terrorist groups. There are also poor Christians in Iraq and Syria, yet they don't gun down non-Christians or set of bombs every few hours.
how do you know this for sure? Poverty, and how we measure it, is all relative. Sure, they may all have a levels or even degrees, but the point remains they turn to extremism to feel a sense of belonging and purpose. I'm sure there are many middle class young people who feel they do not serve a purpose right now, I may be one of them. I'm just not religious, like many young people in the west.
What I'm getting from this thread is: Muslims - bad Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
I can see why you think that, and you may be right, but I think it boils down to whether a religion insists that ALL other religions are bad - so everyone needs to be converted.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
What I'm getting from this thread is: Muslims - bad Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
I can see why you think that, and you may be right, but I think it boils down to whether a religion insists that ALL other religions are bad - so everyone needs to be converted.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
The sad thing is that not only will we be dead if the solution comes ( and that's a big if) so will our great great great grandchildren.
I live with a muslim and two of my very good friends are Muslim too. Two of my friends follow Islam as much as I follow Christianity ie not at all apart from Christmas, they drink and smoke etc.
However the guy I live with, from brum, pakistani actually follows islam to a certain degree and I can assure you when followed correctly it is as peaceful religion as Christianity and mainly talks about being a good person. I have even accompanied him to the mosque on two occasions (granted as there was going to be free food) but it was as welcoming and friendly as we would expect a church to be.
These people committing these atrocities are very angry and deranged men, who have taken the Koran completely out of context and feel by committing these violent crimes in the name of Islam, they are somehow avenging their people and religion. When really a large majority of other Muslims around the world look at them the same way we do, as barbaric savages. It's pretty obvious that their anger is a result of some very questionable foreign policy over the last 20 years. Which is no excuse for them to be doing what they are doing, however blaming the whole muslim religion is certainly not the response that we need to take to combat these nutter's.
Tensions are high now, it happened in Paris, it could well have happened in London. These jihadi islamist's need to be stopped but frankly I can't see how at the moment.
That's good and all, but what makes your friend's interpretation of Islam the right one?
The values they take from Islam could just as easily be picked up from living in western society.
I live with a muslim and two of my very good friends are Muslim too. Two of my friends follow Islam as much as I follow Christianity ie not at all apart from Christmas, they drink and smoke etc.
However the guy I live with, from brum, pakistani actually follows islam to a certain degree and I can assure you when followed correctly it is as peaceful religion as Christianity and mainly talks about being a good person. I have even accompanied him to the mosque on two occasions (granted as there was going to be free food) but it was as welcoming and friendly as we would expect a church to be.
These people committing these atrocities are very angry and deranged men, who have taken the Koran completely out of context and feel by committing these violent crimes in the name of Islam, they are somehow avenging their people and religion. When really a large majority of other Muslims around the world look at them the same way we do, as barbaric savages. It's pretty obvious that their anger is a result of some very questionable foreign policy over the last 20 years. Which is no excuse for them to be doing what they are doing, however blaming the whole muslim religion is certainly not the response that we need to take to combat these nutter's.
Tensions are high now, it happened in Paris, it could well have happened in London. These jihadi islamist's need to be stopped but frankly I can't see how at the moment.
That's good and all, but what makes your friend's interpretation of Islam the right one?
The values they take from Islam could just as easily be picked up from living in western society.
I'm not saying it's the right one. But I am saying it's the way that 99% of the Muslim world also chose to interpret it.
What I'm getting from this thread is: Muslims - bad Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
I can see why you think that, and you may be right, but I think it boils down to whether a religion insists that ALL other religions are bad - so everyone needs to be converted.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
But what you are saying is that some countries are not as progressive as us which you hint at in your last line. That's fine and I don't think many would disagree. The problem I have is associating anyone who practices Islam with being a radicalist or terrorist. That just isn't the case. I'm not defending the religion completely, there is obviously something wrong that is causing a number of young men to behave in the way they are and I think it is worthy of debate. But what has been posted so far in this thread by a number of the usual suspects is the usual racist bile that I've come to expect and part of the reason I stopped visiting in the first place.
It's at times like this being a atheist makes more sense than ever.
what always freaks me out about all religions is the words in most cases were written by men who lived thousands of years ago. In England we hung people for stealing bread back in the day. Laws change.
The main problem now is we live in 2015 in the west. (with christian views not imfringed on daily lives) In parts of the middle East and other parts of the world they are living by words and laws of the dark ages.
Never will the two meet in harmony, they are polar opposites for any shared ground.
What I'm getting from this thread is: Muslims - bad Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
I can see why you think that, and you may be right, but I think it boils down to whether a religion insists that ALL other religions are bad - so everyone needs to be converted.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
But what you are saying is that some countries are not as progressive as us which you hint at in your last line. That's fine and I don't think many would disagree. The problem I have is associating anyone who practices Islam with being a radicalist or terrorist. That just isn't the case. I'm not defending the religion completely, there is obviously something wrong that is causing a number of young men to behave in the way they are and I think it is worthy of debate. But what has been posted so far in this thread by a number of the usual suspects is the usual racist bile that I've come to expect and part of the reason I stopped visiting in the first place.
If you disagree with someone's comments, answer back constructively and make your point. Plenty of people here will share your opinion. Just shouting 'racism' conquers nothing.
What I'm getting from this thread is: Muslims - bad Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
I can see why you think that, and you may be right, but I think it boils down to whether a religion insists that ALL other religions are bad - so everyone needs to be converted.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
But what you are saying is that some countries are not as progressive as us which you hint at in your last line. That's fine and I don't think many would disagree. The problem I have is associating anyone who practices Islam with being a radicalist or terrorist. That just isn't the case. I'm not defending the religion completely, there is obviously something wrong that is causing a number of young men to behave in the way they are and I think it is worthy of debate. But what has been posted so far in this thread by a number of the usual suspects is the usual racist bile that I've come to expect and part of the reason I stopped visiting in the first place.
If you disagree with someone's comments, answer back constructively and make your point. Plenty of people here will share your opinion. Just shouting 'racism' conquers nothing.
I'm not just shouting 'racism'. It's clear which are the offensive posts, I'd flag them but what's the point nothing is ever done about it.
Comments
excuse
verb
ɪkˈskjuːz,ɛk-/
1.
seek to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offence); try to justify.
"he did nothing to hide or excuse Jacob's cruelty"
synonyms: justify, defend, make excuses for, make a case for, explain (away), rationalize, condone, vindicate, warrant;
Charb, one of the caricaturists killed today, said earlier, after receiving death threats: "I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit. It perhaps sounds a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than living on my knees."
I feel in these times his words are incredibly poignant.
R.I.P Charb and all those that have lost their lives today.
Of course not the press reports mainly when things go wrong not when they go right. You're not going to hear about the good community projects, the charitable acts, the fundraising, the family events and all the happy clappy good things in national press but ask around and read local press, or even talk to local Muslims, look at children and mums going about their shopping, go and buy a kebab and get served with a smile.
as @PragueAddick says, I wouldn't be surprised if these guys were from the paris suburbs, which can be lawless cesspits and no go areas for police. A breeding ground for extremism
Many Muslims themselves accept that the reason they went from being the most advanced people on earth to not really do much in recent times is because of the power that Islamic leaders had/have and the oppressiveness that has ensued under the name of Islam.
The argument that outside meddling is to blame is a made up excuse though, conveniently missing out certain points of history. Many Christians going on Pilgrimage were being murdered in Muslim areas and that was the excuse for the first Crusades. The "Turks" weren't peaceful, they were a war mongering dictatorship seeking to expand their power and wealth. Islam wasn't spread all the way to Spain by them knocking on doors handing out leaflets. There's also a lot of destroyed Buddhist temples and centres of knowledge that are testament as to how it was spread through Asia without any influence of Christianity.
#JeSuisCharlie
However the guy I live with, from brum, pakistani actually follows islam to a certain degree and I can assure you when followed correctly it is as peaceful religion as Christianity and mainly talks about being a good person. I have even accompanied him to the mosque on two occasions (granted as there was going to be free food) but it was as welcoming and friendly as we would expect a church to be.
These people committing these atrocities are very angry and deranged men, who have taken the Koran completely out of context and feel by committing these violent crimes in the name of Islam, they are somehow avenging their people and religion. When really a large majority of other Muslims around the world look at them the same way we do, as barbaric savages. It's pretty obvious that their anger is a result of some very questionable foreign policy over the last 20 years. Which is no excuse for them to be doing what they are doing, however blaming the whole muslim religion is certainly not the response that we need to take to combat these nutter's.
Tensions are high now, it happened in Paris, it could well have happened in London. These jihadi islamist's need to be stopped but frankly I can't see how at the moment.
Muslims - bad
Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
The problem here clearly is religious.
Either way, lack of money can never be used to justify getting entangled with terrorist groups. There are also poor Christians in Iraq and Syria, yet they don't gun down non-Christians or set of bombs every few hours.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
Not a dig at anybodys comments, just the same arguments from both sides every time.
The values they take from Islam could just as easily be picked up from living in western society.
Thankfully the UK is far more tolerant, but I worry how long this will last.
what always freaks me out about all religions is the words in most cases were written by men
who lived thousands of years ago. In England we hung people for stealing bread back in the day.
Laws change.
The main problem now is we live in 2015 in the west. (with christian views not imfringed on daily lives)
In parts of the middle East and other parts of the world they are living by words and laws of the dark ages.
Never will the two meet in harmony, they are polar opposites for any shared ground.
I've actually been pleasantly surprised, and it has cheered me up a little as I contemplate this awful event