But do you see Christians carrying out attacks like this in the name of their religion?
Northern Ireland being just one (of many) example.
Do you seriously believe that IRA terrorists and its leaders were motivated by religion, or particular interpretations of the bible? Do you not think that they were motivated by a deeply entrenched view that their country was part occupied by a foreign imperialist power? Perhaps it is you who should have paid more attention during history class!
As someone who studied theology at university (courses on Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and others) it's infuriating to hear people throw out the "all religions are the same line". It's as simplistic and ill thought out as saying "all sports are the same" or "all music is the same".
Sure, they exist under one huge banner, but to use that line is to deny or ignore the fact that each has texts, history, culture and, of course, beliefs that differ wildly and totally from one another. Jainism and Evangelical Christianity, for example, are not comparable in any way.
Of course, many religions cross over at different points. And of course, lots have some seriously fucked up teachings. But that doesn't mean that they are same or incite the same course of action amongst their followers.
Pulling out a violent passage from the Old Testament and the Qur'an and placing them next to each other to demonstrate that Christianity and Islam are the same is idiotic. It's like pulling out the most explicit line from Harry Potter and placing it next to an excerpt from A Clockwork Orange and using to argue both books have the same tone.
It really shouldn't need spelling out, but the teachings of Christianity and Islam are NOT the same. One screamingly obvious example - the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and Muhammad are different in a vast multitude of ways.
I should put in a disclaimer in here that I studied theology because religion is a source of constant interest and of value to me personally.
But I would never dream of denying that that so many have been used to justify some of the most heinous crimes. Nor that the contents of religious teachings led directly to those crimes.
The attack in Paris today was not done with an ulterior motive, or a political pretext. This wasn't motivated by a social grievance justified in the name of religion. The killers were acting on a belief. As long as that belief is commonly held, the extremist minority will continue to act in such a way.
Above someone mentioned they were likely poor and desperate, and so latched onto an extremist belief. Well, at the moment we don't know who they are. But it's worth remembering that 13 of the 15 9/11 hijackers were middle class educated to University level. That thousands of European boys, girls, men and women have gone to join a genocidal, fundamentalist movement in the Islamic State off their own free will. Or that Anders Breivik was a well-educated, well off man. What they believe and why has to be taken into account somewhere.
Disgusting RIP to those dead, thoughts with families and friends.
Isis need to be stopped somehow, extremism should somehow be outlawed before the violence, all extremist teachings from Islam, Christianity and everything else including racist extremists groups should be reported and examples made of before people go to this length.
Please do not turn this into another attack on Muslims, 99% of Muslims are good decent people and they want this to stop as much as the rest of us.
Would not go with 99% myslef
Muslims represent only 4.7 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the most recent Census, yet one in seven prisoners (14 per cent) in England and Wales is a Muslim, according to the statistics.
In some jails the proportion of Islamic inmates is more than one-third, and in Whitemoor, a Category A prison in Cambridgeshire, it is as high as 43 per cent.
The Muslim prison population has increased from 5,502 (7.7 per cent) in 2002 to 11,729 in 2013 (14 per cent) and is set to continue rising rapidly because of the large numbers of Muslim teenagers in youth jails.
I also want to know WHY THEN, if 99% are "peace loving??" dont the rest of "them" come out and march on our streets, hold banners aloft, burn the effing isis flag, I could go on, and on, and effing on!!.............They are cowards who WILL NOT put a uniform on and fight like men. I fear for my boys and my grandsons!!!! RIP....
As someone who studied theology at university (courses on Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and others) it's infuriating to hear people throw out the "all religions are the same line". It's as simplistic and ill thought out as saying "all sports are the same" or "all music is the same".
Sure, they exist under one huge banner, but to use that line is to deny or ignore the fact that each has texts, history, culture and, of course, beliefs that differ wildly and totally from one another. Jainism and Evangelical Christianity, for example, are not comparable in any way.
Of course, many religions cross over at different points. And of course, lots have some seriously fucked up teachings. But that doesn't mean that they are same or incite the same course of action amongst their followers.
Pulling out a violent passage from the Old Testament and the Qur'an and placing them next to each other to demonstrate that Christianity and Islam are the same is idiotic. It's like pulling out the most explicit line from Harry Potter and placing it next to an excerpt from A Clockwork Orange and using to argue both books have the same tone.
It really shouldn't need spelling out, but the teachings of Christianity and Islam are NOT the same. One screamingly obvious example - the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and Muhammad are different in a vast multitude of ways.
I should put in a disclaimer in here that I studied theology because religion is a source of constant interest and of value to me personally.
But I would never dream of denying that that so many have been used to justify some of the most heinous crimes. Nor that the contents of religious teachings led directly to those crimes.
The attack in Paris today was not done with an ulterior motive, or a political pretext. This wasn't motivated by a social grievance justified in the name of religion. The killers were acting on a belief. As long as that belief is commonly held, the extremist minority will continue to act in such a way.
Above someone mentioned they were likely poor and desperate, and so latched onto an extremist belief. Well, at the moment we don't know who they are. But it's worth remembering that 13 of the 15 9/11 hijackers were middle class educated to University level. That thousands of European boys, girls, men and women have gone to join a genocidal, fundamentalist movement in the Islamic State off their own free will. Or that Anders Breivik was a well-educated, well off man. What they believe and why has to be taken into account somewhere.
But do you see Christians carrying out attacks like this in the name of their religion?
Northern Ireland being just one (of many) example.
Do you seriously believe that IRA terrorists and its leaders were motivated by religion, or particular interpretations of the bible? Do you not think that they were motivated by a deeply entrenched view that their country was part occupied by a foreign imperialist power? Perhaps it is you who should have paid more attention during history class!
I said in the thread relating to the school attack in Pakistan that I believe a lot of these incidents are not always completely to do with Islam at all, but it is used as a tool by those seeking power and control. Although clearly that is not the case with the scum that committed today's attack.
I was certainly taught that religion played a part during the troubles, often used to fuel the fire in the same way I believe it can be with Isis etc.
Some Muslims are just jealous that we live in a small sector of the world that is very affluent. We have all the luxuries we could possibly want whilst parts of the world don't even have access to clean water.
They don't understand how this can be when they follow the rules of a religion so perfect.
Yes, except how many magazines will dare to satirise Islam and its followers now? Minority fanatics or not, their violence and threat of violence has already started to erode freedoms of expression that we have valued for a long time. British journals were very reluctant to publish the Danish cartoons of Mohammed. Once our press is cowed like that we have much to fear and the Muslim 'minority fanatics' have started to undermine us. As Rushdie found to his cost they hate our freedom to speak our minds and they will effectively gag us, especially by easily calling us 'racist' or 'Islamaphobic' if we don't share their world view. I would like to have the same right to mock Mohammed and all the Immans as I do the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury or even Jesus.
What I'm getting from this thread is: Muslims - bad Christians - great bunch of lads.
Does that about sum it up?
I can see why you think that, and you may be right, but I think it boils down to whether a religion insists that ALL other religions are bad - so everyone needs to be converted.
I recall in the 1960's that Britain made amendments to the bike helmet laws to allow sikhs to wear a turban instead.
I can't imagine Iran/Saudi/Yemen putting on a bacon sandwich/Whisky/lapdancer for my breakfast - nor would I expect them too!
The way to a solution is through the peaceful muslims of the world (majority) but it's going to be a long road.
But what you are saying is that some countries are not as progressive as us which you hint at in your last line. That's fine and I don't think many would disagree. The problem I have is associating anyone who practices Islam with being a radicalist or terrorist. That just isn't the case. I'm not defending the religion completely, there is obviously something wrong that is causing a number of young men to behave in the way they are and I think it is worthy of debate. But what has been posted so far in this thread by a number of the usual suspects is the usual racist bile that I've come to expect and part of the reason I stopped visiting in the first place.
Colthe3rd - when England fans were at their most notorious they were seen as scum, bringing Shame on the Country etc etc. The FA/Govt decided enough was enough and brought in draconian measures, every fan was seen as the same, whether they had actually caused trouble or not, they were labelled thugs, people gave you a strange look if you said you were one, you were treated diff at airports etc - basically discriminated against. Who gave a shit? No one - it was tough luck, one of them things.
It worked though - England's support was changed beyond recognition. Yet even now 20 years later when there is no trouble, ordinary fans are still treated differently to joe public. Saying you follow England still gets that look and thise comments and guess what...still no one gives a shit.
The people I feel for at the moment are the victims of these scum, not whether some joe blogs may label all Muslims the same.
@ValleyTalkBlog : you wrote: That thousands of European boys, girls, men and women have gone to join a genocidal, fundamentalist movement in the Islamic State off their own free will
The majority, the overwhelming majority of the IS recruits from Europe will be of Middle Eastern, African or Indian sub-continental origin, the offspring of recent immigrants to Europe from the aforementioned lands. Perhaps these young people are the progeny of disaffected immigrants, newcomers to a foreign land who have not been accepted for whatever reason or have chosen not to integrate for cultural or perhaps religious reasons. It must be difficult for such young people to grow up in a society which they might find alien and threatening, especially if they have tried hard to integrate and 'do the right thing'. A schizophrenia may develop, home life is a fossilised version of how life was back in the 'old country', life outside the home is more carefree and perhaps in the eyes of the old folks at home, such a life might be evil and influenced by beealzebub and satan. No wonder such young people may be confused and looking for a meaning to it all. Confusion as to their cultural heritage, worry that they do not fit into western secular society. A short while ago the chairman of one of the leading Islamic Groups/Societies in the UK was interviewed on Radio5. His stance was that he would not accept that anyone had the right to mock, ridicule or laugh at 'the prophets', including Abraham and Jesus. He did not expend on what 'punishment' should be meted out to those who dared to go against his opinion. With 'leaders' like this having great influence over swathes of Islamic society in the UK, it is small wonder that many, especially young people are confused and develop wayward values and opinions. I would suspect that for every 'defector' to IS, there are many more, especially young Muslims who sympathise with the extremist Middle East groups, simply because their 'values' are more understandable than the sometimes confusing mores and morals inherent in modern Europe
To those claiming this was purely an act of savage anger, I ask: what motivation did the attackers have? Retribution alone? The target was carefully chosen and the attack was doubtless delicately planned. As I have said, France teeters on the brink of various out and out racial conflicts. Those who perpetrated today's atrocities aspire to bring about and deepen these conflicts. It is France's duty to prevent them from succeeding.
But do you see Christians carrying out attacks like this in the name of their religion?
Northern Ireland being just one (of many) example.
Do you seriously believe that IRA terrorists and its leaders were motivated by religion, or particular interpretations of the bible? Do you not think that they were motivated by a deeply entrenched view that their country was part occupied by a foreign imperialist power? Perhaps it is you who should have paid more attention during history class!
As I'm sure many Islamic extremists also believe...
To those claiming this was purely an act of savage anger, I ask: what motivation did the attackers have? Retribution alone? The target was carefully chosen and the attack was doubtless delicately planned. As I have said, France teeters on the brink of various out and out racial conflicts. Those who perpetrated today's atrocities aspire to bring about and deepen these conflicts. It is France's duty to prevent them from succeeding.
Yes, except how many magazines will dare to satirise Islam and its followers now? Minority fanatics or not, their violence and threat of violence has already started to erode freedoms of expression that we have valued for a long time. British journals were very reluctant to publish the Danish cartoons of Mohammed. Once our press is cowed like that we have much to fear and the Muslim 'minority fanatics' have started to undermine us. As Rushdie found to his cost they hate our freedom to speak our minds and they will effectively gag us, especially by easily calling us 'racist' or 'Islamaphobic' if we don't share their world view. I would like to have the same right to mock Mohammed and all the Immans as I do the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury or even Jesus.
That's a key issue for me.
What mainstream Islam can do to undermine the extremists is say loudly, clearly and regularly that the right to mock Mohammed and Allah is as sacrosanct as the right to believe in them - that it is a matter of personal choice and no idea or belief is above ridicule.
Disgusting RIP to those dead, thoughts with families and friends.
Isis need to be stopped somehow, extremism should somehow be outlawed before the violence, all extremist teachings from Islam, Christianity and everything else including racist extremists groups should be reported and examples made of before people go to this length.
Please do not turn this into another attack on Muslims, 99% of Muslims are good decent people and they want this to stop as much as the rest of us.
Would not go with 99% myslef
Muslims represent only 4.7 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the most recent Census, yet one in seven prisoners (14 per cent) in England and Wales is a Muslim, according to the statistics.
In some jails the proportion of Islamic inmates is more than one-third, and in Whitemoor, a Category A prison in Cambridgeshire, it is as high as 43 per cent.
The Muslim prison population has increased from 5,502 (7.7 per cent) in 2002 to 11,729 in 2013 (14 per cent) and is set to continue rising rapidly because of the large numbers of Muslim teenagers in youth jails.
I also want to know WHY THEN, if 99% are "peace loving??" dont the rest of "them" come out and march on our streets, hold banners aloft, burn the effing isis flag, I could go on, and on, and effing on!!.............They are cowards who WILL NOT put a uniform on and fight like men. I fear for my boys and my grandsons!!!! RIP....
there was a lot of Isis flag burning not long ago, I think it even originated in Lebanon.
Firstly condolences to the family and friends of those who have been murdered.
Secondly well done to all those demonstrating in France and even in Trafalghar Square.
As a life long atheist I have never had a positive view of religion, any religion, although I respect and understand that people do have religious views and that some people do some good things because they are motivated by their religion (just as many atheists do because they believe they are just good things to do).
But as the quote goes "Your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins".
Respecting someone else's religion should not mean giving it the right to veto others' views or mean it can not be criticised.
Fundamentalists of any kind, be they Islamic murderers like today or far right Christians such as Brevik in Norway or the anti-abortion Christian bombers in the US are not representative of the most believers of those faiths but those faiths, however distorted a version it may be, inspire those actions and justify the killings in the sick minds of the killers. And you can't argue with a sick mind.
To those claiming this was purely an act of savage anger, I ask: what motivation did the attackers have? Retribution alone? The target was carefully chosen and the attack was doubtless delicately planned. As I have said, France teeters on the brink of various out and out racial conflicts. Those who perpetrated today's atrocities aspire to bring about and deepen these conflicts. It is France's duty to prevent them from succeeding.
There could many reasons why. The point is that something has gone seriously wrong in the lives of the perpetrators between the day they were born and today. Something so bad that it has caused them to be so angry that they have planned and sadly now committed murder. To say that they are angry just because someone has offended their religion cannot be enough of a reason, unless they have paranoid schizophrenia.
I was shocked that my Van could go through 4 counties and no one check who i am or what i was carrying, and tbh even the checks getting into the uk were a 2 second visual on a passport through the window, some times freedom of movement is not a good thing
I crossed Europe by train and was amazed by the lack of checks too. Is your van plain or logo'd up out of interest?
No logo plain white, the fact these fuckas could drive from France through Europe and never get stopped should worry everyone, we need stronger stiffer border control across the whole of Europe till things settle down
But do you see Christians carrying out attacks like this in the name of their religion?
Northern Ireland being just one (of many) example.
Do you seriously believe that IRA terrorists and its leaders were motivated by religion, or particular interpretations of the bible? Do you not think that they were motivated by a deeply entrenched view that their country was part occupied by a foreign imperialist power? Perhaps it is you who should have paid more attention during history class!
Ah you are bringing back memories of my student days. Days when 28 kids went for an innocent night out in the Tavern in the Town in Birmingham and were blown to bits. Days when my own sister was 5 minutes from being caught up in the Harrods bomb. Days when they tried to blow up our entire cabinet.
I remember the student union discussions. I remember those that had tribally attached themselves to groupings like the Socialist Workers Party. They struggled to try and argue that the Tavern in the Town was somehow justified by events that happened in 1916.
The truth was that the IRA leadership were (are) fascists, and their foot soldiers who did the dirty work were violent criminals who would have otherwise been behind bars or in secure mental hospitals. It doesn't really matter whether they claimed religion or politics as their driving inspiration. And shame on those who claim to follow anti-fascist political beliefs and end up as apologists for terrorism carried out by fascists and psychopathic thugs.
Comments
Sure, they exist under one huge banner, but to use that line is to deny or ignore the fact that each has texts, history, culture and, of course, beliefs that differ wildly and totally from one another. Jainism and Evangelical Christianity, for example, are not comparable in any way.
Of course, many religions cross over at different points. And of course, lots have some seriously fucked up teachings. But that doesn't mean that they are same or incite the same course of action amongst their followers.
Pulling out a violent passage from the Old Testament and the Qur'an and placing them next to each other to demonstrate that Christianity and Islam are the same is idiotic. It's like pulling out the most explicit line from Harry Potter and placing it next to an excerpt from A Clockwork Orange and using to argue both books have the same tone.
It really shouldn't need spelling out, but the teachings of Christianity and Islam are NOT the same. One screamingly obvious example - the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and Muhammad are different in a vast multitude of ways.
I should put in a disclaimer in here that I studied theology because religion is a source of constant interest and of value to me personally.
But I would never dream of denying that that so many have been used to justify some of the most heinous crimes. Nor that the contents of religious teachings led directly to those crimes.
The attack in Paris today was not done with an ulterior motive, or a political pretext. This wasn't motivated by a social grievance justified in the name of religion. The killers were acting on a belief. As long as that belief is commonly held, the extremist minority will continue to act in such a way.
Above someone mentioned they were likely poor and desperate, and so latched onto an extremist belief. Well, at the moment we don't know who they are. But it's worth remembering that 13 of the 15 9/11 hijackers were middle class educated to University level. That thousands of European boys, girls, men and women have gone to join a genocidal, fundamentalist movement in the Islamic State off their own free will. Or that Anders Breivik was a well-educated, well off man. What they believe and why has to be taken into account somewhere.
I also want to know WHY THEN, if 99% are "peace loving??" dont the rest of "them" come out and march on our streets, hold banners aloft, burn the effing isis flag, I could go on, and on, and effing on!!.............They are cowards who WILL NOT put a uniform on and fight like men. I fear for my boys and my grandsons!!!!
RIP....
I was certainly taught that religion played a part during the troubles, often used to fuel the fire in the same way I believe it can be with Isis etc.
They don't understand how this can be when they follow the rules of a religion so perfect.
It worked though - England's support was changed beyond recognition. Yet even now 20 years later when there is no trouble, ordinary fans are still treated differently to joe public. Saying you follow England still gets that look and thise comments and guess what...still no one gives a shit.
The people I feel for at the moment are the victims of these scum, not whether some joe blogs may label all Muslims the same.
The majority, the overwhelming majority of the IS recruits from Europe will be of Middle Eastern, African or Indian sub-continental origin, the offspring of recent immigrants to Europe from the aforementioned lands.
Perhaps these young people are the progeny of disaffected immigrants, newcomers to a foreign land who have not been accepted for whatever reason or have chosen not to integrate for cultural or perhaps religious reasons. It must be difficult for such young people to grow up in a society which they might find alien and threatening, especially if they have tried hard to integrate and 'do the right thing'. A schizophrenia may develop, home life is a fossilised version of how life was back in the 'old country', life outside the home is more carefree and perhaps in the eyes of the old folks at home, such a life might be evil and influenced by beealzebub and satan. No wonder such young people may be confused and looking for a meaning to it all. Confusion as to their cultural heritage, worry that they do not fit into western secular society.
A short while ago the chairman of one of the leading Islamic Groups/Societies in the UK was interviewed on Radio5. His stance was that he would not accept that anyone had the right to mock, ridicule or laugh at 'the prophets', including Abraham and Jesus. He did not expend on what 'punishment' should be meted out to those who dared to go against his opinion. With 'leaders' like this having great influence over swathes of Islamic society in the UK, it is small wonder that many, especially young people are confused and develop wayward values and opinions.
I would suspect that for every 'defector' to IS, there are many more, especially young Muslims who sympathise with the extremist Middle East groups, simply because their 'values' are more understandable than the sometimes confusing mores and morals inherent in modern Europe
This isn't COD this is a civilised and fucked off with this shit attack together we will rid the world of these vermin
Fight fire with fire
All I can say is RIP.
What mainstream Islam can do to undermine the extremists is say loudly, clearly and regularly that the right to mock Mohammed and Allah is as sacrosanct as the right to believe in them - that it is a matter of personal choice and no idea or belief is above ridicule.
performed to the crowd, tried necking pints and a jug.
3,000 people sing 'Jesus is a wanker, Jesus is a wanker, la la la la' was absolutely brilliant.
When he did finally manage to neck a pint, it was cheered followed by 'Jesus is our Leader, Jesus is our leader, la la la la' Quality
Not sure they aired it though whilst the darts was ongoing
Secondly well done to all those demonstrating in France and even in Trafalghar Square.
As a life long atheist I have never had a positive view of religion, any religion, although I respect and understand that people do have religious views and that some people do some good things because they are motivated by their religion (just as many atheists do because they believe they are just good things to do).
But as the quote goes "Your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins".
Respecting someone else's religion should not mean giving it the right to veto others' views or mean it can not be criticised.
Fundamentalists of any kind, be they Islamic murderers like today or far right Christians such as Brevik in Norway or the anti-abortion Christian bombers in the US are not representative of the most believers of those faiths but those faiths, however distorted a version it may be, inspire those actions and justify the killings in the sick minds of the killers. And you can't argue with a sick mind.
We can't even be thankful for that this time round. I can't believe they haven't been caught
No logo plain white, the fact these fuckas could drive from France through Europe and never get stopped should worry everyone, we need stronger stiffer border control across the whole of Europe till things settle down
I remember the student union discussions. I remember those that had tribally attached themselves to groupings like the Socialist Workers Party. They struggled to try and argue that the Tavern in the Town was somehow justified by events that happened in 1916.
The truth was that the IRA leadership were (are) fascists, and their foot soldiers who did the dirty work were violent criminals who would have otherwise been behind bars or in secure mental hospitals. It doesn't really matter whether they claimed religion or politics as their driving inspiration. And shame on those who claim to follow anti-fascist political beliefs and end up as apologists for terrorism carried out by fascists and psychopathic thugs.