I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
So, is controlling the borders, a good thing?
Sure is, but they are great at doing it from the north but crap doing it from the south and east....
South is Spain. It's an open border (and yes there are checks if you drive through) but as both countries are in the Shengen agreement, they don't need to check to see if Spaniards have been in France earlier in the year, or for how long. Ditto Italy, Belgium and Germany. Checks going in and out of Switzerland are a different thing - I knw as I went there to work once and the lorry with all the gear got stuck at the border for two days. But like the UK, the Swiss have a different system and demand check. stuff going in and out. Does this really have to be explained every time?
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
Sadly, I don't think it is something we can do until the Conservative party sorts itself out. We need a consensus and we have the malevolent press who tell gullible people what to think and it would be presented as a return to the EU, despite being something even Farage supported before the vote and the Brexit side kept saying a deal would be done.
I think there are things that can be done in the meantime by simply having a different relationship with the EU. One of friendship and respect. I think some major problems can be tackled if we treat France as partners.
Everything could be overcome amicably if both sides dropped the points scoring attitude,and realised that sensible cooperation is the way forward.I just do not see how slowing things down at borders benefits anybody least of all EU citizens trying to get home.
The starting point has to be from us and I think that can be achieved. We have seen the view that French knocking is a vote winner. That has to change. The French have issues around illegal immigrants crossing. Different issues but we both have a reason to resolve this and that is the only effective way to do it. The French also make money from tourism so it is in their interest that Brits travel there. If we could be nice to them and stop being narrow minded bastards, I'm sure we can change that.
It is irrelevant if we think the French could do more or not. The question should be, can we do something and I honestly think a change of attitude can achieve a lot.
We could start of course with our government being honest with us and recognising the cause, or at least the worsening of these issues at Dover...
If it's not Brexit then what they're effectively saying is large parts of Kent can be brought to a standstill because 5 or 6 French people were an hour or two late to work. Which is it?
Tbf neither of them can admit that it would essentially be admitting that the whole reason they are in power is based on a lie.
That's essentially the problem isn't it?
The government's insistence that there are no downsides to Brexit means they've painted them, and us, into a corner.
As with anything in life we cannot start sorting it out properly until we recognise what's causing the problem. The new PM is obviously just going to continue blaming anything and everyone else but the unavoidable consequences of being outside the EU that are causing these traffic issues at the border.
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
That’s all very well, but destiny man, destiny ! Will somebody please think of the destinies for the love of god!?
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
Plus quitting the UK has caused emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly. You have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afraid if you choose to live in another country.
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
Plus quitting the UK has caused emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly. You have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afraid if you choose to live in another country.
Well we're certainly learning to take the rough with the smooth living in the UK, and I suspect it'll get rougher.
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
Plus quitting the UK has caused emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly. You have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afraid if you choose to live in another country.
I chose to live in a fellow EU country. I didn't move the goalposts.
I'm late to the Brexit debate, about six years late to be precise. I won't bore you with my views on that as they're an irrelevance now, but many seem resigned to accept that we and our EU colleagues are to remain in misery as a consequence with no way forward, stuck playing the blame game forever more, or at least until we rejoin, and unless a minor party wins the next election, that ain't happening anytime soon.
I've seen a poster roundly criticized for suggesting that the only solution lay in consensus cross border politics with parties ceasing blaming each other and agreeing on a resolution limiting the damage to both trading parties, the same point I made earlier which didn't evoke any response, although I'm relieved about that in retrospect.
It seems we're stuck in a time warp and can't break out if it, endlessly stating then restating that we should never have left. Of the many imponderables on Brexit, one thing I'm sure of is that saying we shouldn't have left isn't going to solve anything now.
I feel as though entering this discussion on any level is to put one's head above the parapet and I should now duck to evade the evade the incoming volley of cross fire. 🪖
I'm late to the Brexit debate, about six years late to be precise. I won't bore you with my views on that as they're an irrelevance now, but many seem resigned to accept that we and our EU colleagues are to remain in misery as a consequence with no way forward, stuck playing the blame game forever more, or at least until we rejoin, and unless a minor party wins the next election, that ain't happening anytime soon.
I've seen a poster roundly criticized for suggesting that the only solution lay in consensus cross border politics with parties ceasing blaming each other and agreeing on a resolution limiting the damage to both trading parties, the same point I made earlier which didn't evoke any response, although I'm relieved about that in retrospect.
It seems we're stuck in a time warp and can't break out if it, endlessly stating then restating that we should never have left. Of the many imponderables on Brexit, one thing I'm sure of is that saying we shouldn't have left isn't going to solve anything now.
I feel as though entering this discussion on any level is to put one's head above the parapet and I should now duck to evade the evade the incoming volley of cross fire. 🪖
This is a good post. You seem to be saying that what has to happen now is to deal with the practical consequences of the vote to leave. None of us are mind readers as to why any individual chose to vote the way they did, and it can be acknowledged that what was said before the result may well be very irritating but that is in the past. The only value in looking at what was said is that it can help you form an opinion as to the measure of the man or woman who said whatever, and bank that for the future. So how in practical terms will the whole of the UK leave the EU as specified on the voting slip? That’s the issue for leave voters to take the lead on whilst remain voters give feedback and ask questions about the viability of leave voters practical suggestions.
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
Plus quitting the UK has caused emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly. You have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afraid if you choose to live in another country.
I chose to live in a fellow EU country. I didn't move the goalposts.
You chose to emigrate it's quite simple. Goal posts can always be moved. I recall years ago people I worked with planning on retiring to Spain & Greece.
I remember discussing with them a whole host of possible pitfalls in the future and that property price movements may mean they can't return, but it was their choice and very good luck to them & I hope they are thriving.
If you regret the decision why don't you move back, or is that not possible due to property price movements (which I warned my ex colleagues about)?
I never wanted any of this nonsense, I didn't vote for it and no one ever could give a compelling reason that made me think, "well that would be handy". But lots of people wanted it, whatever "it" may or may not be. So theres nothing I can do now other than except the position we are in now. I'm sure we'll get a work around solution at some point, probably when the great and the good get inconvenienced a few times too many. Until then people of kent will have to put up with the lorry park and business will continue to suffer. It may well be that the problems at Dover are not just down to us leaving the EU but I'd say 90% of it is. I'm sure British exceptionalism will find a way out, probably a very expensive way out with a large lump of humble pie.
I'm late to the Brexit debate, about six years late to be precise. I won't bore you with my views on that as they're an irrelevance now, but many seem resigned to accept that we and our EU colleagues are to remain in misery as a consequence with no way forward, stuck playing the blame game forever more, or at least until we rejoin, and unless a minor party wins the next election, that ain't happening anytime soon.
I've seen a poster roundly criticized for suggesting that the only solution lay in consensus cross border politics with parties ceasing blaming each other and agreeing on a resolution limiting the damage to both trading parties, the same point I made earlier which didn't evoke any response, although I'm relieved about that in retrospect.
It seems we're stuck in a time warp and can't break out if it, endlessly stating then restating that we should never have left. Of the many imponderables on Brexit, one thing I'm sure of is that saying we shouldn't have left isn't going to solve anything now.
I feel as though entering this discussion on any level is to put one's head above the parapet and I should now duck to evade the evade the incoming volley of cross fire. 🪖
This is a good post. You seem to be saying that what has to happen now is to deal with the practical consequences of the vote to leave. None of us are mind readers as to why any individual chose to vote the way they did, and it can be acknowledged that what was said before the result may well be very irritating but that is in the past. The only value in looking at what was said is that it can help you form an opinion as to the measure of the man or woman who said whatever, and bank that for the future. So how in practical terms will the whole of the UK leave the EU as specified on the voting slip? That’s the issue for leave voters to take the lead on whilst remain voters give feedback and ask questions about the viability of leave voters practical suggestions.
Politician's should step up to the plate and take the lead, but it seems beyond the current incumbents to see through the fog over the channel, endless mudslinging their modus operandi.
I'm confident that the input of remain voters, many of whom would no doubt be well placed influencers, could offer up the most practical solutions rather than them taking a back seat though. That's unless they take the view that, "as leave voters got us into this mess, they can get us out of it."
I do understand that, because of the divisive nature of the whole debate, they would be reluctant to be proactive though. However, in the spirit of one nation unity, we need all the help we can get dealing with this, regardless of what quarter it comes from.
I'm not offering up any practical solutions by the way, but don't draw any conclusions as to my beliefs from that.
I find it a little peculiar, although totally expected, that some of the most disgruntled posters on this thread don't live in the UK.
What's even more weird, they feel they should have a say in our destiny even though its naff all to do with them. Very peculiar behaviour.
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
You had plenty to say about the London mayoral elections mate.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
Plus quitting the UK has caused emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly. You have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afraid if you choose to live in another country.
I chose to live in a fellow EU country. I didn't move the goalposts.
You chose to emigrate it's quite simple. Goal posts can always be moved. I recall years ago people I worked with planning on retiring to Spain & Greece.
I remember discussing with them a whole host of possible pitfalls in the future and that property price movements may mean they can't return, but it was their choice and very good luck to them & I hope they are thriving.
If you regret the decision why don't you move back, or is that not possible due to property price movements (which I warned my ex colleagues about)?
Unusally for you CE, you seem to want to create an argument where there is none. I merely pointed out to anyone interested why those of us living abroad have perfectly legitimate reasons for having a say in debates such as this.
I have not even so much as hinted that I regret the decison to move to Portugal, and cannot for the life of me see where you got that idea from.
I regret that 17 million gullible people fell for a pack of lies, and as a consequence have made my (and their) lives more difficult.
Sadly, I don't think it is something we can do until the Conservative party sorts itself out. We need a consensus and we have the malevolent press who tell gullible people what to think and it would be presented as a return to the EU, despite being something even Farage supported before the vote and the Brexit side kept saying a deal would be done.
I think there are things that can be done in the meantime by simply having a different relationship with the EU. One of friendship and respect. I think some major problems can be tackled if we treat France as partners.
Everything could be overcome amicably if both sides dropped the points scoring attitude,and realised that sensible cooperation is the way forward.I just do not see how slowing things down at borders benefits anybody least of all EU citizens trying to get home.
The starting point has to be from us and I think that can be achieved. We have seen the view that French knocking is a vote winner. That has to change. The French have issues around illegal immigrants crossing. Different issues but we both have a reason to resolve this and that is the only effective way to do it. The French also make money from tourism so it is in their interest that Brits travel there. If we could be nice to them and stop being narrow minded bastards, I'm sure we can change that.
It is irrelevant if we think the French could do more or not. The question should be, can we do something and I honestly think a change of attitude can achieve a lot.
We could start of course with our government being honest with us and recognising the cause, or at least the worsening of these issues at Dover...
If it's not Brexit then what they're effectively saying is large parts of Kent can be brought to a standstill because 5 or 6 French people were an hour or two late to work. Which is it?
Tbf neither of them can admit that it would essentially be admitting that the whole reason they are in power is based on a lie.
That's essentially the problem isn't it?
The government's insistence that there are no downsides to Brexit means they've painted them, and us, into a corner.
As with anything in life we cannot start sorting it out properly until we recognise what's causing the problem. The new PM is obviously just going to continue blaming anything and everyone else but the unavoidable consequences of being outside the EU that are causing these traffic issues at the border.
Funny thing is that Liz Truss voted to Remain & was lambasting Leavers at the time.
Seems like the only way someone thinks they can become Conservative Leader is if they advocate Leave even if they didn't do so at the time. Not sure how many Remainers would now say that Brexit was a great idea so Truss must be in a minority of 1.
I did see a couple of times straw polls about who voted for what in 2016 and how they had changed over the course of the proceeing 6 years. the general change was frpm leave to remain (not a great percentage had changed) but there was asmall minority who had gone the other way, and I cannot imagine what they have seen since we left that makes them consider leaving was better than what we previously had.
getting back to the whole point of this thread - I have to go see a client in a few weeks who lives in Ashford. Last time I saw her (April) Operation Brock was in operation & the usual shenanigan's of using the London bound carriageway for both going & coming back. Seeing as this trip will be mid-August and I'm expecting some queuing somewhere along the way what do you think the best way would be to go ? She lives in Brook, a mile or 2 from Ashford Hospital.
I was thinking maybe M2 to Faversham & then down the A251 - but seeing as this thread is all about (or was until the last few days) how Kent roads are blocked everywhere once Operation Brook is active I wondered if there would be a better way.
getting back to the whole point of this thread - I have to go see a client in a few weeks who lives in Ashford. Last time I saw her (April) Operation Brock was in operation & the usual shenanigan's of using the London bound carriageway for both going & coming back. Seeing as this trip will be mid-August and I'm expecting some queuing somewhere along the way what do you think the best way would be to go ? She lives in Brook, a mile or 2 from Ashford Hospital.
I was thinking maybe M2 to Faversham & then down the A251 - but seeing as this thread is all about (or was until the last few days) how Kent roads are blocked everywhere once Operation Brook is active I wondered if there would be a better way.
Where are you travelling from? Weekdays are better than Friday, Saturday & Sunday.
Brock is working as it should be at the moment and non cross channel traffic uses the contraflow on the London bound carriageway between junctions 8 & 9. Sometimes it flows freely at 50mph, but as the carriageway is restricted to fewer lanes, there is always the chance of a breakdown or accident blocking it completely. The A20 is an alternative.
If you come along the coastbound M20 the traffic is divided just before junction 8. Lane 1 is for the Services and A20 only, EU cross channel freight uses lane 2 and all other coastbound traffic uses lane 3. The signs for this appear at the half mile point, which I think is too late as I frequently see traffic changing lanes at the last minute.
There is no access for coastbound traffic at J8 for traffic using the services, as you have to go back to junction 7 to access the coastbound carriageway.
Sadly, I don't think it is something we can do until the Conservative party sorts itself out. We need a consensus and we have the malevolent press who tell gullible people what to think and it would be presented as a return to the EU, despite being something even Farage supported before the vote and the Brexit side kept saying a deal would be done.
I think there are things that can be done in the meantime by simply having a different relationship with the EU. One of friendship and respect. I think some major problems can be tackled if we treat France as partners.
Everything could be overcome amicably if both sides dropped the points scoring attitude,and realised that sensible cooperation is the way forward.I just do not see how slowing things down at borders benefits anybody least of all EU citizens trying to get home.
The starting point has to be from us and I think that can be achieved. We have seen the view that French knocking is a vote winner. That has to change. The French have issues around illegal immigrants crossing. Different issues but we both have a reason to resolve this and that is the only effective way to do it. The French also make money from tourism so it is in their interest that Brits travel there. If we could be nice to them and stop being narrow minded bastards, I'm sure we can change that.
It is irrelevant if we think the French could do more or not. The question should be, can we do something and I honestly think a change of attitude can achieve a lot.
We could start of course with our government being honest with us and recognising the cause, or at least the worsening of these issues at Dover...
If it's not Brexit then what they're effectively saying is large parts of Kent can be brought to a standstill because 5 or 6 French people were an hour or two late to work. Which is it?
Tbf neither of them can admit that it would essentially be admitting that the whole reason they are in power is based on a lie.
That's essentially the problem isn't it?
The government's insistence that there are no downsides to Brexit means they've painted them, and us, into a corner.
As with anything in life we cannot start sorting it out properly until we recognise what's causing the problem. The new PM is obviously just going to continue blaming anything and everyone else but the unavoidable consequences of being outside the EU that are causing these traffic issues at the border.
Funny thing is that Liz Truss voted to Remain & was lambasting Leavers at the time.
Seems like the only way someone thinks they can become Conservative Leader is if they advocate Leave even if they didn't do so at the time. Not sure how many Remainers would now say that Brexit was a great idea so Truss must be in a minority of 1.
Boris Johnson didn't know which camp he was going to follow originally, he made a decision on the option he thought would give him the best chance of becoming PM, leading to the hardest of all Brexits.
Sadly, I don't think it is something we can do until the Conservative party sorts itself out. We need a consensus and we have the malevolent press who tell gullible people what to think and it would be presented as a return to the EU, despite being something even Farage supported before the vote and the Brexit side kept saying a deal would be done.
I think there are things that can be done in the meantime by simply having a different relationship with the EU. One of friendship and respect. I think some major problems can be tackled if we treat France as partners.
Everything could be overcome amicably if both sides dropped the points scoring attitude,and realised that sensible cooperation is the way forward.I just do not see how slowing things down at borders benefits anybody least of all EU citizens trying to get home.
The starting point has to be from us and I think that can be achieved. We have seen the view that French knocking is a vote winner. That has to change. The French have issues around illegal immigrants crossing. Different issues but we both have a reason to resolve this and that is the only effective way to do it. The French also make money from tourism so it is in their interest that Brits travel there. If we could be nice to them and stop being narrow minded bastards, I'm sure we can change that.
It is irrelevant if we think the French could do more or not. The question should be, can we do something and I honestly think a change of attitude can achieve a lot.
We could start of course with our government being honest with us and recognising the cause, or at least the worsening of these issues at Dover...
If it's not Brexit then what they're effectively saying is large parts of Kent can be brought to a standstill because 5 or 6 French people were an hour or two late to work. Which is it?
Tbf neither of them can admit that it would essentially be admitting that the whole reason they are in power is based on a lie.
That's essentially the problem isn't it?
The government's insistence that there are no downsides to Brexit means they've painted them, and us, into a corner.
As with anything in life we cannot start sorting it out properly until we recognise what's causing the problem. The new PM is obviously just going to continue blaming anything and everyone else but the unavoidable consequences of being outside the EU that are causing these traffic issues at the border.
Funny thing is that Liz Truss voted to Remain & was lambasting Leavers at the time.
Seems like the only way someone thinks they can become Conservative Leader is if they advocate Leave even if they didn't do so at the time. Not sure how many Remainers would now say that Brexit was a great idea so Truss must be in a minority of 1.
Boris Johnson didn't know which camp he was going to follow originally, he made a decision on the option he thought would give him the best chance of becoming PM, leading to the hardest of all Brexits.
For once ME we are in 100% agreement. With Boris it's always been about him.
Sadly, I don't think it is something we can do until the Conservative party sorts itself out. We need a consensus and we have the malevolent press who tell gullible people what to think and it would be presented as a return to the EU, despite being something even Farage supported before the vote and the Brexit side kept saying a deal would be done.
I think there are things that can be done in the meantime by simply having a different relationship with the EU. One of friendship and respect. I think some major problems can be tackled if we treat France as partners.
Everything could be overcome amicably if both sides dropped the points scoring attitude,and realised that sensible cooperation is the way forward.I just do not see how slowing things down at borders benefits anybody least of all EU citizens trying to get home.
The starting point has to be from us and I think that can be achieved. We have seen the view that French knocking is a vote winner. That has to change. The French have issues around illegal immigrants crossing. Different issues but we both have a reason to resolve this and that is the only effective way to do it. The French also make money from tourism so it is in their interest that Brits travel there. If we could be nice to them and stop being narrow minded bastards, I'm sure we can change that.
It is irrelevant if we think the French could do more or not. The question should be, can we do something and I honestly think a change of attitude can achieve a lot.
We could start of course with our government being honest with us and recognising the cause, or at least the worsening of these issues at Dover...
If it's not Brexit then what they're effectively saying is large parts of Kent can be brought to a standstill because 5 or 6 French people were an hour or two late to work. Which is it?
Tbf neither of them can admit that it would essentially be admitting that the whole reason they are in power is based on a lie.
That's essentially the problem isn't it?
The government's insistence that there are no downsides to Brexit means they've painted them, and us, into a corner.
As with anything in life we cannot start sorting it out properly until we recognise what's causing the problem. The new PM is obviously just going to continue blaming anything and everyone else but the unavoidable consequences of being outside the EU that are causing these traffic issues at the border.
Funny thing is that Liz Truss voted to Remain & was lambasting Leavers at the time.
Seems like the only way someone thinks they can become Conservative Leader is if they advocate Leave even if they didn't do so at the time. Not sure how many Remainers would now say that Brexit was a great idea so Truss must be in a minority of 1.
Boris Johnson didn't know which camp he was going to follow originally, he made a decision on the option he thought would give him the best chance of becoming PM, leading to the hardest of all Brexits.
For once ME we are in 100% agreement. With Boris it's always been about him.
Er... yeh!
Name one of the fuckers, red blue or purple who ain't?
On the subject - the A229 is closed at Loose Valley, south of Maidstone, as a bridge is in danger of collapsing following a burst water main. And the road through Leeds Village, a useful link to the M20, is closed until August 6th.
Leaving blame out of it for a moment, if leave voters want to know who is responsible for the state of things they only have to look in the mirror I'm afraid. If @swordfish is right, and it is essentially now down to remain voters like me to come up with solutions to something I didn't want or think could practically happen, then may I suggest everybody supporting the SNP in their quest for an independence vote, because during such a campaign Nicola Sturgeon might come up with a land border solution.
getting back to the whole point of this thread - I have to go see a client in a few weeks who lives in Ashford. Last time I saw her (April) Operation Brock was in operation & the usual shenanigan's of using the London bound carriageway for both going & coming back. Seeing as this trip will be mid-August and I'm expecting some queuing somewhere along the way what do you think the best way would be to go ? She lives in Brook, a mile or 2 from Ashford Hospital.
I was thinking maybe M2 to Faversham & then down the A251 - but seeing as this thread is all about (or was until the last few days) how Kent roads are blocked everywhere once Operation Brook is active I wondered if there would be a better way.
Think the M20 is better in the London direction... So, drive to Portsmouth, ferry to Cherbourg, drive to Calais, ferry to Dover and up the A20 / M20 to Ashord, then local roads to your destination. Quicker than queuing on the M20. For the return journey, sell the car and get the train back. Hope this is useful...
Leaving blame out of it for a moment, if leave voters want to know who is responsible for the state of things they only have to look in the mirror I'm afraid. If @swordfish is right, and it is essentially now down to remain voters like me to come up with solutions to something I didn't want or think could practically happen, then may I suggest everybody supporting the SNP in their quest for an independence vote, because during such a campaign Nicola Sturgeon might come up with a land border solution.
I thought I was saying that it was in everyone's best interests, both here and abroad, to pool their thoughts as to how to resolve the mess and that remain voters constructive views were as welcome and valid as anyone else's, but perhaps I expressed myself badly. I definitely didn't say it was down to them to come up with solutions in isolation or when they objected to doing so for good reason.
Comments
Does this really have to be explained every time?
They will argue they have an aunt in betsham or own a shed in farnborough so that gives them the right. If its so wonderful in planet EU, get on with it and leave us too.
The government's insistence that there are no downsides to Brexit means they've painted them, and us, into a corner.
As with anything in life we cannot start sorting it out properly until we recognise what's causing the problem. The new PM is obviously just going to continue blaming anything and everyone else but the unavoidable consequences of being outside the EU that are causing these traffic issues at the border.
You know the reasons full well, but for those who are not aware. My pension will be a UK state pension, I have property in the UK, virtually all my family live in the UK and naturally I want the best for them, I may well want to return to the UK one day. Leaving the EU means problems for us - we can't get some imported goods that used to be readily available, we need to get new residency cards, we can no longer order goods from the UK, and just two weeks ago a birthday present a friend sent for my wife was stopped at customs and has now gone back to the UK (well - they say that, I expect a custom's guy's daughter will have it by now, we fully expect it to get "lost" on it's way back).
So quitting the EU has caused us emmigrants problems both directly and indirectly.
You have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afraid if you choose to live in another country.
I've seen a poster roundly criticized for suggesting that the only solution lay in consensus cross border politics with parties ceasing blaming each other and agreeing on a resolution limiting the damage to both trading parties, the same point I made earlier which didn't evoke any response, although I'm relieved about that in retrospect.
It seems we're stuck in a time warp and can't break out if it, endlessly stating then restating that we should never have left. Of the many imponderables on Brexit, one thing I'm sure of is that saying we shouldn't have left isn't going to solve anything now.
I feel as though entering this discussion on any level is to put one's head above the parapet and I should now duck to evade the evade the incoming volley of cross fire. 🪖
None of us are mind readers as to why any individual chose to vote the way they did, and it can be acknowledged that what was said before the result may well be very irritating but that is in the past.
The only value in looking at what was said is that it can help you form an opinion as to the measure of the man or woman who said whatever, and bank that for the future.
So how in practical terms will the whole of the UK leave the EU as specified on the voting slip? That’s the issue for leave voters to take the lead on whilst remain voters give feedback and ask questions about the viability of leave voters practical suggestions.
Goal posts can always be moved.
I recall years ago people I worked with planning on retiring to Spain & Greece.
I remember discussing with them a whole host of possible pitfalls in the future and that property price movements may mean they can't return, but it was their choice and very good luck to them & I hope they are thriving.
If you regret the decision why don't you move back, or is that not possible due to property price movements (which I warned my ex colleagues about)?
But lots of people wanted it, whatever "it" may or may not be. So theres nothing I can do now other than except the position we are in now. I'm sure we'll get a work around solution at some point, probably when the great and the good get inconvenienced a few times too many. Until then people of kent will have to put up with the lorry park and business will continue to suffer.
It may well be that the problems at Dover are not just down to us leaving the EU but I'd say 90% of it is. I'm sure British exceptionalism will find a way out, probably a very expensive way out with a large lump of humble pie.
I'm confident that the input of remain voters, many of whom would no doubt be well placed influencers, could offer up the most practical solutions rather than them taking a back seat though. That's unless they take the view that, "as leave voters got us into this mess, they can get us out of it."
I do understand that, because of the divisive nature of the whole debate, they would be reluctant to be proactive though. However, in the spirit of one nation unity, we need all the help we can get dealing with this, regardless of what quarter it comes from.
I'm not offering up any practical solutions by the way, but don't draw any conclusions as to my beliefs from that.
I have not even so much as hinted that I regret the decison to move to Portugal, and cannot for the life of me see where you got that idea from.
I regret that 17 million gullible people fell for a pack of lies, and as a consequence have made my (and their) lives more difficult.
Seems like the only way someone thinks they can become Conservative Leader is if they advocate Leave even if they didn't do so at the time. Not sure how many Remainers would now say that Brexit was a great idea so Truss must be in a minority of 1.
I was thinking maybe M2 to Faversham & then down the A251 - but seeing as this thread is all about (or was until the last few days) how Kent roads are blocked everywhere once Operation Brook is active I wondered if there would be a better way.
Brock is working as it should be at the moment and non cross channel traffic uses the contraflow on the London bound carriageway between junctions 8 & 9. Sometimes it flows freely at 50mph, but as the carriageway is restricted to fewer lanes, there is always the chance of a breakdown or accident blocking it completely. The A20 is an alternative.
If you come along the coastbound M20 the traffic is divided just before junction 8. Lane 1 is for the Services and A20 only, EU cross channel freight uses lane 2 and all other coastbound traffic uses lane 3. The signs for this appear at the half mile point, which I think is too late as I frequently see traffic changing lanes at the last minute.
There is no access for coastbound traffic at J8 for traffic using the services, as you have to go back to junction 7 to access the coastbound carriageway.
With Boris it's always been about him.
Name one of the fuckers, red blue or purple who ain't?
If @swordfish is right, and it is essentially now down to remain voters like me to come up with solutions to something I didn't want or think could practically happen, then may I suggest everybody supporting the SNP in their quest for an independence vote, because during such a campaign Nicola Sturgeon might come up with a land border solution.
So, drive to Portsmouth, ferry to Cherbourg, drive to Calais, ferry to Dover and up the A20 / M20 to Ashord, then local roads to your destination.
Quicker than queuing on the M20.
For the return journey, sell the car and get the train back.
Hope this is useful...