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How many games has Luzon got?

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  • colin1961 said:

    What did the fans achieve tonight
    That was the youngest Charlton side I have seen start a match ... what else can Luzon do the injury list is horrendous add to it Gudmunnson and Watt now

    What could he do, for a start he could organise them and send them out inspired and set up not to concede.

    Instead we looked absolutely disorganised and beaten before the first whistle blew, no pride, no fight,no guts and hopefully no Luzon.
    Dont think it was in his master plan to give away a free kick and so concede a goal in the first minute with a wall deciding not to jump, when that happened, the fans instantly started booing so heads dropped straight away
    Be nice to know what his master plan was with 3 left backs in the team.

  • Brilliant post Grapevine. You have helped make total sense of what have been, so far, just random negative thoughts about the team I love. Thank you.

    Smashed it,hasn't he.
  • Cast your eyes across the following and you can make your own determination as to whether the club under this regime in football terms is now better positioned to deliver progress going forward.

    For me, with the monies already spent, were I the investor assessing if our playing staff was fit for purpose, while I can acknowledge the potential, it is at present an uncomfortable read.

    1. Ahearne-Grant 2. Ajdarevic 3. Alnwick 4. Ansah 5. Aribo 6. Azeez 7. Ba 8. Barnes 9. Bauer 10. Ben-Haim 11. Bergdich 12. Berg Gudmundsson 13. Bikey Amougou 14. Browne 15. Bulot 16. Buyens. 17. Cebellos 18. Charles - Cook 19. Church 20. J Cook 21. Coquelin 22. Cort 23. Cousins 24. Cumberbatch 25. Daniel 26. Dervite 27. Diarra 28. Dmitrovic 29. Eagles 30. Edwards 31. Etheridge 32. Evina 33. Fox 34. Gerard 35. Ghoochannejhad 36. Gomez 37. Hamer 38. Hanlon 39. Harriott 40. Henderson 41. Holmes-Dennis 42. Hughes 43. Jackson 44. Johnson 45. Kashi 46. Kelly 47. Kennedy 48. Kermorgant 49. Koc 50. Lapsie 51. Lennon 52. Lepoint 53. McAleny 54. Makienok 55. Mitov 56. Monlouis 57. Morrison 58. Moussa 59. Muldoon 60. Munns 61. Nego 62. Obika 63. Obileye 64. Onyewu 65. Osbourne 66. Parzysek 67. Petrucci 68. Phillips 69. Piggot 70. Pope 71. Poyet 72. Pritchard 73. Pyke 74. Sarr 75. Sho Silva 76. Smith 77. Solly 78. Sordell 79. Staunton 80. Stephens 81. Thomas 82. Thuram 83. Tucudean 84. Tudgay 85. Umerah 86. Veljkovic 87. Vetokele 88. Watt 89. Wiggins 90. Wilson 91. Wood

    92. Doyley ?

    Feely, Gower, Green & Hollands whose Charlton careers were effectively at an end by Jan 2014 are excluded.

    It's a long list but how does it compare to other clubs? Players move clubs far more regularly than they used to. I think it's more down to modern football than it is RD.

    Looking at players used by each Championship club in 14/15 the average was 32 and we used 34. We're also a club willing to give youngsters a chance so you might expect it to be slightly higher than clubs that don't tend to do that. We were slightly above the average of 33 in 13/14 using 35 players.

    http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/The_Championship_2014-2015/Stats/Players_Used/

    http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/The_Championship_2013-2014/stats/players_used/

    Of course we may have used more players in total when you combine those two seasons but we always had one of the smaller budgets which means less signings on long term contracts and more short term fixes to ensure survival in the league.

    In that list there's also a lot of u21s that haven't played for the first team. Being an U21 rather than reserve league we need a decent sized squad of that age group which is why we top it up with signings - Aribo, Ansah, Browne, Cumberbatch, Daniel, Monlouis, Munns, Obileye and Staunton. We were doing that before RD bought the club. Smith is another (though he made two cup appearances for us) and Koc was loaned here, for whatever reason, to play for our U21s.

    That's 11 and there's a further 19 from our academy that have at most made a handful of first team appearances - Azeez, Barnes, Charles-Cook, Edwards, Gerard, Hanlan, Holmes-Denns, Kelly, Kennnedy, Lapslie, Lennon, Mitov, Muldoon, Osborne, Phillips, Pyke, Sho-Silva, Thomas and Umerah.

    That puts the list at around 60 players. RD or not there were always going to be a lot of changes due to contracts running out, many being players that didn't deserve new deals, others that wanted to move on and loanees that for various reasons didn't become permanent signings.

    Although teams that win promotion tend to use less (Bournemouth with 24, though Watford used 31) they also tend to build those squads over a few seasons. Perhaps RD/KM now see that as the summer signings excluding Makienok all came in on longer term contracts. The issue is they've underestimated how expensive a strong Championship squad is, which is why we're over budget but at least 2/3 players short of what we needed at the start of the season.

    I'd say they've also underestimated the importance of experience in and around a squad. They don't even have to be proven Championship players at the peak of their careers. A few more experienced squad players might have added something in the way players like Hughes and Euell did when we won League 1. We have two players in their 30s in Jackson and Diarra and after that the next oldest are Henderson, Kashi, Bergdich and Moussa, two that have had injury problems since signing and another two that are new to this country and league.

    Maybe that explains why we were looking at Doyley and Ameobi. Doyley has mainly played as a right back and would presumably mainly provide cover for Solly. Could he add more to the dressing room than he adds on the pitch? He's made over 400 appearances for Watford, all while they were a Championship club aside from a season in the Premier League.

    I'm not saying I'm pro RD, after all as someone said we were 22nd when he took over and we're in the same position now. I don't think the high number of first team players is unusual for an average Championship side and it's not something to solely blame RD and KM for, we're far from the only club like it.
  • Luzon isn't the problem, anyone with a brain should realise that.

    A new manager won't get any better performances out of these players, especially with the injury crisis we're in.

    but would a new manager get worse performances ....
    are they playing anywhere to near the maximum of their ability regularly enough
    Would you rather RD pays £1m to pay off Luzon and get a new manager in, or £1m on new players in jan? He's clearly set a budget and the squad must be the priority.
    He needs to think about some virement in that budget or else we are fecked.
  • Scoham said:

    Cast your eyes across the following and you can make your own determination as to whether the club under this regime in football terms is now better positioned to deliver progress going forward.

    For me, with the monies already spent, were I the investor assessing if our playing staff was fit for purpose, while I can acknowledge the potential, it is at present an uncomfortable read.

    1. Ahearne-Grant 2. Ajdarevic 3. Alnwick 4. Ansah 5. Aribo 6. Azeez 7. Ba 8. Barnes 9. Bauer 10. Ben-Haim 11. Bergdich 12. Berg Gudmundsson 13. Bikey Amougou 14. Browne 15. Bulot 16. Buyens. 17. Cebellos 18. Charles - Cook 19. Church 20. J Cook 21. Coquelin 22. Cort 23. Cousins 24. Cumberbatch 25. Daniel 26. Dervite 27. Diarra 28. Dmitrovic 29. Eagles 30. Edwards 31. Etheridge 32. Evina 33. Fox 34. Gerard 35. Ghoochannejhad 36. Gomez 37. Hamer 38. Hanlon 39. Harriott 40. Henderson 41. Holmes-Dennis 42. Hughes 43. Jackson 44. Johnson 45. Kashi 46. Kelly 47. Kennedy 48. Kermorgant 49. Koc 50. Lapsie 51. Lennon 52. Lepoint 53. McAleny 54. Makienok 55. Mitov 56. Monlouis 57. Morrison 58. Moussa 59. Muldoon 60. Munns 61. Nego 62. Obika 63. Obileye 64. Onyewu 65. Osbourne 66. Parzysek 67. Petrucci 68. Phillips 69. Piggot 70. Pope 71. Poyet 72. Pritchard 73. Pyke 74. Sarr 75. Sho Silva 76. Smith 77. Solly 78. Sordell 79. Staunton 80. Stephens 81. Thomas 82. Thuram 83. Tucudean 84. Tudgay 85. Umerah 86. Veljkovic 87. Vetokele 88. Watt 89. Wiggins 90. Wilson 91. Wood

    92. Doyley ?

    Feely, Gower, Green & Hollands whose Charlton careers were effectively at an end by Jan 2014 are excluded.

    It's a long list but how does it compare to other clubs? Players move clubs far more regularly than they used to. I think it's more down to modern football than it is RD.

    Looking at players used by each Championship club in 14/15 the average was 32 and we used 34. We're also a club willing to give youngsters a chance so you might expect it to be slightly higher than clubs that don't tend to do that. We were slightly above the average of 33 in 13/14 using 35 players.

    http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/The_Championship_2014-2015/Stats/Players_Used/

    http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/The_Championship_2013-2014/stats/players_used/

    Of course we may have used more players in total when you combine those two seasons but we always had one of the smaller budgets which means less signings on long term contracts and more short term fixes to ensure survival in the league.

    In that list there's also a lot of u21s that haven't played for the first team. Being an U21 rather than reserve league we need a decent sized squad of that age group which is why we top it up with signings - Aribo, Ansah, Browne, Cumberbatch, Daniel, Monlouis, Munns, Obileye and Staunton. We were doing that before RD bought the club. Smith is another (though he made two cup appearances for us) and Koc was loaned here, for whatever reason, to play for our U21s.

    That's 11 and there's a further 19 from our academy that have at most made a handful of first team appearances - Azeez, Barnes, Charles-Cook, Edwards, Gerard, Hanlan, Holmes-Denns, Kelly, Kennnedy, Lapslie, Lennon, Mitov, Muldoon, Osborne, Phillips, Pyke, Sho-Silva, Thomas and Umerah.

    That puts the list at around 60 players. RD or not there were always going to be a lot of changes due to contracts running out, many being players that didn't deserve new deals, others that wanted to move on and loanees that for various reasons didn't become permanent signings.

    Although teams that win promotion tend to use less (Bournemouth with 24, though Watford used 31) they also tend to build those squads over a few seasons. Perhaps RD/KM now see that as the summer signings excluding Makienok all came in on longer term contracts. The issue is they've underestimated how expensive a strong Championship squad is, which is why we're over budget but at least 2/3 players short of what we needed at the start of the season.

    I'd say they've also underestimated the importance of experience in and around a squad. They don't even have to be proven Championship players at the peak of their careers. A few more experienced squad players might have added something in the way players like Hughes and Euell did when we won League 1. We have two players in their 30s in Jackson and Diarra and after that the next oldest are Henderson, Kashi, Bergdich and Moussa, two that have had injury problems since signing and another two that are new to this country and league.

    Maybe that explains why we were looking at Doyley and Ameobi. Doyley has mainly played as a right back and would presumably mainly provide cover for Solly. Could he add more to the dressing room than he adds on the pitch? He's made over 400 appearances for Watford, all while they were a Championship club aside from a season in the Premier League.

    I'm not saying I'm pro RD, after all as someone said we were 22nd when he took over and we're in the same position now. I don't think the high number of first team players is unusual for an average Championship side and it's not something to solely blame RD and KM for, we're far from the only club like it.
    In the end you get what you are prepared to pay for.

    If it is true that we have the third lowest budget in the Championship then we really belong in League One. Roland's strategy of surviving by selling makes more sense in that division. From RD's point of view he may be fairly relaxed about relegation. Gates would go down, but not by that much from where we are now, whereas the playing costs would fall substantially. He would also be able to raise funds by selling JBG, Bauer and maybe a few others without having to replace them with players of the same quality.

    KM would say that as we are a 'family club' it does not matter that we have no aspirations. We could knock around the lower divisions like Orient do, a peripheral London club surviving on a shoestring.

  • One if he puts out a lop-sided team again and we get taken to the cleaners by a poor Brentford side.
  • Saturday 24 October

    16:51. Charlton lose second game in a week

    16:55: Luzon sacked. New manager applications invited

    17:10 Interview process starts

    18:25 Interview process finished

    18:50 New manager announcement. Welcome Barry Belgianlowerleague

    19:10 photos on the pitch ,with scarf

    Apart from the photos,Id say I got that spot on!
  • edited October 2015
    Southbank said:

    Scoham said:

    Cast your eyes across the following and you can make your own determination as to whether the club under this regime in football terms is now better positioned to deliver progress going forward.

    For me, with the monies already spent, were I the investor assessing if our playing staff was fit for purpose, while I can acknowledge the potential, it is at present an uncomfortable read.

    1. Ahearne-Grant 2. Ajdarevic 3. Alnwick 4. Ansah 5. Aribo 6. Azeez 7. Ba 8. Barnes 9. Bauer 10. Ben-Haim 11. Bergdich 12. Berg Gudmundsson 13. Bikey Amougou 14. Browne 15. Bulot 16. Buyens. 17. Cebellos 18. Charles - Cook 19. Church 20. J Cook 21. Coquelin 22. Cort 23. Cousins 24. Cumberbatch 25. Daniel 26. Dervite 27. Diarra 28. Dmitrovic 29. Eagles 30. Edwards 31. Etheridge 32. Evina 33. Fox 34. Gerard 35. Ghoochannejhad 36. Gomez 37. Hamer 38. Hanlon 39. Harriott 40. Henderson 41. Holmes-Dennis 42. Hughes 43. Jackson 44. Johnson 45. Kashi 46. Kelly 47. Kennedy 48. Kermorgant 49. Koc 50. Lapsie 51. Lennon 52. Lepoint 53. McAleny 54. Makienok 55. Mitov 56. Monlouis 57. Morrison 58. Moussa 59. Muldoon 60. Munns 61. Nego 62. Obika 63. Obileye 64. Onyewu 65. Osbourne 66. Parzysek 67. Petrucci 68. Phillips 69. Piggot 70. Pope 71. Poyet 72. Pritchard 73. Pyke 74. Sarr 75. Sho Silva 76. Smith 77. Solly 78. Sordell 79. Staunton 80. Stephens 81. Thomas 82. Thuram 83. Tucudean 84. Tudgay 85. Umerah 86. Veljkovic 87. Vetokele 88. Watt 89. Wiggins 90. Wilson 91. Wood

    92. Doyley ?

    Feely, Gower, Green & Hollands whose Charlton careers were effectively at an end by Jan 2014 are excluded.

    It's a long list but how does it compare to other clubs? Players move clubs far more regularly than they used to. I think it's more down to modern football than it is RD.

    Looking at players used by each Championship club in 14/15 the average was 32 and we used 34. We're also a club willing to give youngsters a chance so you might expect it to be slightly higher than clubs that don't tend to do that. We were slightly above the average of 33 in 13/14 using 35 players.

    http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/The_Championship_2014-2015/Stats/Players_Used/

    http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/The_Championship_2013-2014/stats/players_used/

    Of course we may have used more players in total when you combine those two seasons but we always had one of the smaller budgets which means less signings on long term contracts and more short term fixes to ensure survival in the league.

    In that list there's also a lot of u21s that haven't played for the first team. Being an U21 rather than reserve league we need a decent sized squad of that age group which is why we top it up with signings - Aribo, Ansah, Browne, Cumberbatch, Daniel, Monlouis, Munns, Obileye and Staunton. We were doing that before RD bought the club. Smith is another (though he made two cup appearances for us) and Koc was loaned here, for whatever reason, to play for our U21s.

    That's 11 and there's a further 19 from our academy that have at most made a handful of first team appearances - Azeez, Barnes, Charles-Cook, Edwards, Gerard, Hanlan, Holmes-Denns, Kelly, Kennnedy, Lapslie, Lennon, Mitov, Muldoon, Osborne, Phillips, Pyke, Sho-Silva, Thomas and Umerah.

    That puts the list at around 60 players. RD or not there were always going to be a lot of changes due to contracts running out, many being players that didn't deserve new deals, others that wanted to move on and loanees that for various reasons didn't become permanent signings.

    Although teams that win promotion tend to use less (Bournemouth with 24, though Watford used 31) they also tend to build those squads over a few seasons. Perhaps RD/KM now see that as the summer signings excluding Makienok all came in on longer term contracts. The issue is they've underestimated how expensive a strong Championship squad is, which is why we're over budget but at least 2/3 players short of what we needed at the start of the season.

    I'd say they've also underestimated the importance of experience in and around a squad. They don't even have to be proven Championship players at the peak of their careers. A few more experienced squad players might have added something in the way players like Hughes and Euell did when we won League 1. We have two players in their 30s in Jackson and Diarra and after that the next oldest are Henderson, Kashi, Bergdich and Moussa, two that have had injury problems since signing and another two that are new to this country and league.

    Maybe that explains why we were looking at Doyley and Ameobi. Doyley has mainly played as a right back and would presumably mainly provide cover for Solly. Could he add more to the dressing room than he adds on the pitch? He's made over 400 appearances for Watford, all while they were a Championship club aside from a season in the Premier League.

    I'm not saying I'm pro RD, after all as someone said we were 22nd when he took over and we're in the same position now. I don't think the high number of first team players is unusual for an average Championship side and it's not something to solely blame RD and KM for, we're far from the only club like it.
    In the end you get what you are prepared to pay for.

    If it is true that we have the third lowest budget in the Championship then we really belong in League One. Roland's strategy of surviving by selling makes more sense in that division. From RD's point of view he may be fairly relaxed about relegation. Gates would go down, but not by that much from where we are now, whereas the playing costs would fall substantially. He would also be able to raise funds by selling JBG, Bauer and maybe a few others without having to replace them with players of the same quality.

    KM would say that as we are a 'family club' it does not matter that we have no aspirations. We could knock around the lower divisions like Orient do, a peripheral London club surviving on a shoestring.

    You lose £3-4m in TV revenue and PL solidarity money simply by going down, a hefty chunk of ticket sales to visiting supporters and, given the mutinous mood, I would guess a good £1m in home ticket receipts, all with very little corresponding cost saving. Let's round it off at a reduction of £5m net. Good luck saving that out of the budget through lower playing costs.

    Sure, you can sell your better players, once, but you lose the £5m every year. Carry on digging, Roland.
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Roland Out Forever!