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Official 2016 Grand National Thread

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  • Great stuff once again Peanuts, thanks for the insight...
  • edited March 2016
    Cheers CHG, much appreciated but the proof of the pudding.....

    In any event, a few comments on why my (modified) model rates the stat-profile of PERFECT CANDIDATE (9y-o 10-02) alongside that of VICS CANVAS as the Next Best to Many Clouds:

    • Stamina a strength. Ran well (3.75L 5th, staying on one-paced) in a competitive renewal of the Class 1 3.5m Murphy Group Chase (won by Sausalito Sunrise, who’s up 19lbs since) at Cheltenham in November, a race which has become a decent guide for the GN:

    o 2009: Don’t Push It and Hello Bud made the frame in it prior to their 2010 GN win and 5th
    o 2013: Alvarado won it and Monbeg Dude was close 4th prior to their respective 4th and 7th in the 2014 GN. Of course, the Dude was then an unlucky 3rd in the 2015 GN
    o 2014: The Druids Nephew was 1.5L 2nd and Saint Are 3rd prior to Druids strong run (leading and travelling strongly when falling 6 out) and Saint Are’s agonising 1.75L 2nd in the 2015 GN

    It’s true that GN rivals The Romford Pele and Spring Heeled also ran creditably behind PC in November’s Murphy Chase and, respectively, have a 10lb and 4lb pull at the weights on PC, but their overall GN profiles are deficient.

    • PC’s having an excellent season, winning or near-missing (<5L) in 3 of his 4 chases, all at Cheltenham and including subsequently giving 1lb and an 8L defeat to the progressive Beg To Differ over 3m3f, lumping 11.07 on testing ground. Again, he stayed on strongly up the Cheltenham hill. Raised 9lbs, he ran a better prep in the Kim Muir than the bare result suggests; 32L 6th but was hampered at the 1st and, again, 4 out. And yet again, he stayed on strongly up the Cheltenham hill.

    • Never faced the GN fences (statistically irrelevant for GN winners) but has completed in all of his 12 chases (8 over the stiff fences of Cheltenham, Newbury and Chepstow).

    • In the sweet spot for age, weight, seasons’ runs (4) and 23 days since last.

    • Is versatile in terms of race tactics (hold up or handy) but his Achilles’ heel may be a lack of speed and late gears on quick ground. His breeding does not suggest that he wouldn’t act on decent ground – his sire (Winged Love) and dam-sire (Insan) both operated on quick ground and their progeny tend to handle sound surfaces well enough. One of his full sisters has won on Good and Good-to-Firm but PC’s never been tried over a trip on quick.

    The Murphy Group Chase was run at a strong gallop and in a respectable time for GS (he raced in midfield) but, certainly, his performances to date suggest that the more juice in the ground (and the more Good-to-Soft or Soft in the going description) the better. Significantly, rain is forecast off and on for Liverpool from now through the GN meeting.

    It's always difficult to judge whether an out-and-out stayer, still in the early stages of their chasing career, NEEDS testing ground or simply a true test by either testing ground or a trip. Monbeg Dude defied those that regarded last year's GN ground as too quick for him. The lack of gears for PC doesn't deter - I'll be content if he's simply not slowing down after 34 furlongs (most others still running will be) - it's whether he can stay close enough at Good ground pace. If it is quick ground and he's down the field in running of course he will need to avoid traffic problems, but even if the going isn't ideal I'll be happy to have him on my ticket at 66s, especially if 6th place is available.

  • Hi Peanuts
    Talking of Mullins horses I'm intrigued by the entry of Sir Des Champs.
    Still only 10 with 11stone and second in the Gold Cup in 2013.
    He couldn't possibly come back to his best or could he ?
    Silver Birch came back after a very serious injury to win.
  • edited March 2016

    Hi Peanuts
    Talking of Mullins horses I'm intrigued by the entry of Sir Des Champs.
    Still only 10 with 11stone and second in the Gold Cup in 2013.
    He couldn't possibly come back to his best or could he ?
    Silver Birch came back after a very serious injury to win.

    Got a lot going for him Chief.
    He's got 10.13 actually and is off a mark 19lb below its peak.
    Handles any ground, good record in the spring. For that reason, impossible to know how much of his former class he retains, having his 3 runs on soft or heavy from Nov to Feb since his return. A nice Listed win and a couple of respectable if unspectacular runs in Grade 1 company. He's raced mainly on soft/heavy in Ireland of course but, aside from registering his only Fall, he's unbeaten when running on Good or Yielding and it's possible he could look a new horse on a sounder surface.
    Not many negatives all told but you've got to whittle them down somehow and he ticks few positives for my model in the GN stat department.
    Firstly, there have been GN winners with no form at 3.5m+ but it's all about %s for me and, unlike Silver Birch (Welsh National winner on heavy, Becher Chase winner, Placed in the 4m novice chase on Good at the Festival), SDC's lack of form at 27f+ or over the GN fences leaves his appetite for the trip and fences as guesswork.
    Secondly, he had his last run 63 days prior. While he only misses it by just 10 days and though there have been runners-up that didn't tick this box, every single winner of the GN for at least 27 years had at least 1 run after announcement of the GN weights.
    Having said all of that, at 40/1 I think he represents a very interesting e/w proposition.

  • Thank you Peanuts excellent summary as always.
    He is owned by Gigginstown so it will be interesting to see if Cooper rides him .
  • edited March 2016

    Thank you Peanuts excellent summary as always.
    He is owned by Gigginstown so it will be interesting to see if Cooper rides him .

    Cheers Chief,
    Mullins seems to be thinking Cooper will ride him and, of O'Leary's other entries that will definitely make the cut, he's not ridden First Lieutenant or Roi Du Mee this season and Rule The World has other entries this weekend and is a longer price for the GN.
    SDC has been given an entry for the Topham as well so, despite Mullins' musings to the media, given the Vautour U-turn I'd stick to NRNB prices :wink:

    PS 18 of the top 40 currently still entered are Mullins, Nicholls, JP or Gigginstown runners........wow, what a great quality field. Where would the GN be without them? ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz
  • I haven't decided to back him yet , but if the going is good I will probably have an interest.
  • Cheers P.
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  • Cause Of Causes (topweight after his penalty for the Kim Muir win) and Living Next Door declared for the Irish Grand National on Monday.
    Will run the slide-rule over them tomorrow.
  • I must admit Peanuts Saint Are is coming into my thinking a lot lately and just dont know if i should add him to my current ante post list
  • edited March 2016

    I must admit Peanuts Saint Are is coming into my thinking a lot lately and just dont know if i should add him to my current ante post list

    TBH killer, I'm surprised he's as long as 25s....I guess he wouldn't be if he was in a big yard.
    Forget models, if you make Many Clouds fav, why wouldn't you fancy this fella 2lb better off for a 1.75L defeat?
  • Exactly Peanuts I keep thinking he should be shorter or he is going to go shorter and to be honest I should be backing him
  • Absolutely superb analysis, Peanuts.
  • bobmunro said:

    Absolutely superb analysis, Peanuts.

    Too kind Bob, hope you'll still think so at 5.24pm on 9 April :smile:
  • edited March 2016

    Exactly Peanuts I keep thinking he should be shorter or he is going to go shorter and to be honest I should be backing him

    No point in waiting for 6 places cos BetVic have him at 20s for 4 places. I've taken bet365's 25s e/w 5 places NRNB.
    Do I qualify for a commission Bob? :wink:
  • Exactly Peanuts I keep thinking he should be shorter or he is going to go shorter and to be honest I should be backing him

    No point in waiting for 6 places cos BetVic have him at 20s for 4 places. I've taken bet365's 25s e/w 5 places NRNB.
    Do I qualify for a commission Bob? :wink:
    More likely your account closed PM ;-(
  • Exactly Peanuts I keep thinking he should be shorter or he is going to go shorter and to be honest I should be backing him

    No point in waiting for 6 places cos BetVic have him at 20s for 4 places. I've taken bet365's 25s e/w 5 places NRNB.
    Do I qualify for a commission Bob? :wink:
    I think the way it works, Peanuts, is that I do ;-)
  • bobmunro said:

    Exactly Peanuts I keep thinking he should be shorter or he is going to go shorter and to be honest I should be backing him

    No point in waiting for 6 places cos BetVic have him at 20s for 4 places. I've taken bet365's 25s e/w 5 places NRNB.
    Do I qualify for a commission Bob? :wink:
    I think the way it works, Peanuts, is that I do ;-)
    It's a cruel world. :confused:
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  • edited March 2016
    Meanwhile, a little diversion - the Irish Grand National at Fairyhouse, to be run on Monday.

    I'm using an elimination-style stat screen (sample = last 15 renewals, using stats of winners and near-missers – 36 in total):


    HARD STATS:

    • AGE – younger than 11 (36/36 winners and near-missers)

    Take out: Bless The Wings, Cantlow, Raz De Maree, Portrait King, Ballyadam Approach


    • WEIGHT – 11.00 or less (35/36 , all 15 winners)

    Take out: Cause of Causes, Mala Beach, My Murphy, Living Next Door, Sub Lieutenant, Thunder & Roses


    • LAST RUN – 11~51 days (34/36, 14/15 winners)

    Take out: Another Hero, Folsom Blue, Killer Crow, Tulsa Jack, Definite Ruby, Futuramic, Riverside City


    • MILEAGE – 15 or fewer chases (34/36, all 15 winners)

    Take out: Rogue Angel, Russe Blanc


    From 29, that leaves us with a Long List of 9:

    BONNY KATE
    VENETIEN DE MAI
    BAIE DES ILES
    CAPTAIN VON TRAPPE
    KILFORD
    UNIC DE BERSY
    JAROB
    BEARLY LEGAL
    WRATH OF TITANS


    Subjective whittling down:

    • I’m going to take out BAIE DES ILES and CAPT VON TRAPPE because the maximum field size in which they’ve won or near-missed in any race is just 10 and the % view is that they could struggle in the chaos that is typically an Irish National.

    That leaves 7 – working on these, more anon...................I definitely need to get out more :neutral:
  • edited March 2016
    OK, a simple final whittling down to 4 - I'll be backing those that have won or near-missed in a chase at Fairyhouse (all have also won or near-missed in a 3m+ chase or won a 3m PtP):

    BONNY KATE (6y-o, 10.09) 8/1
    UNIC DE BERSY (8y-o, 10.05) 33/1
    JAROB (9y-o, 10.02) 33/1
    WRATH OF TITANS (7y-o, 9.13) 25/1 (he is a half brother to last year's winner Thunder And Roses, who carries too much weight this time)



    Beats sticking a pin in the paper.............maybe :smile:

  • Ok, Peanuts, I have lumped on your 4 tips
  • edited March 2016
    One caveat re Jarob, you might want to wait to see how much rain Fairyhouse gets this afternoon. He'd much prefer it to stay away.
    It's dry there tomorrow.
  • .....now you tell me!!!!! Hehe
  • Are you doing all 4 in a ew accumulator or all individual?
  • Are you doing all 4 in a ew accumulator or all individual?

    This is Low Conviction stuff Chief but I've done Bonny Kate to win as she's 2nd fav and the others 5 places e/w NRNB (all individual bets).
    But I am keeping an eye on the weather there today - if it rains a lot there's another of my final list that prefers it soft and is at a decent e/w price that I might slip in, as there's 5 places on offer.

    ádh mór
  • edited March 2016
    Hmm, that Ryanair (congrats to Kerry Lee BTW - what a start to a training career) was 31.9 secs slow of std and slower than last year's, when the Official Going was Soft.

    Looks like the rain has definitely got into the ground, despite the Y (Sft places) description.

    In light of that, I'm going to add KILFORD (bet365 28/1 e/w 5 places) as a 5th interest on my slip. He should relish the softer ground and ticks all the "hard" stat boxes. While I left him off my final 4 because he doesn't have a chase win at Fairyhouse to his name, he has one at Navan, which is also an undulating and galloping track (he's also won going right-handed).

    Market jt fav Venetien De Mai certainly appears to be a big threat. Like Kilford, he made my final short list, will also relish softer ground and has chase wins at undulating and galloping tracks (Naas & Down Royal) but, though it has a small sample, of the 13 winners and near-missers in 4 Irish GNs since 2001 with "Soft" anywhere in the going description, only 1 (4.5L 2nd Oscar Time 2010) carried more than 10.06. It may be a slender margin but he'll carry 10.09 and I'll take that as a reason to opt for Kilford with 10.05 - can't split them on stats otherwise.


    ádh mór
  • Peanuts... I am interested to know why you seem to have dismissed Silviniaco Conti? He is the class horse in the race and even with 11-8 it could be argued that he should be carrying more.
  • len90 said:

    Peanuts... I am interested to know why you seem to have dismissed Silviniaco Conti? He is the class horse in the race and even with 11-8 it could be argued that he should be carrying more.

    Agreed. If he gets the trip, he wins.
    The price has gone though.
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