I must be misunderstanding this bit: 'Last week it emerged that Cressida Dick, head of the Metropolitan Police, had confirmed that her officers were investigating the contents of the leaked dossier from the July disputes panel meeting.'
I believe that is Labour's internal disputes panel meeting. She was given it in September and her officers had been analysing it for a couple of months as the article is from November.
I must be misunderstanding this bit: 'Last week it emerged that Cressida Dick, head of the Metropolitan Police, had confirmed that her officers were investigating the contents of the leaked dossier from the July disputes panel meeting.'
I believe that is Labour's internal disputes panel meeting. She was given it in September and her officers had been analysing it for a couple of months as the article is from November.
OK I see. It was after LBC got their information that the police became involved seems to be the sequence of events. LBC became aware from a leaked dossier from a 'disputes panel'. I assume the disputes panel was an internal Labour Party mechanism. Would it therefore be right to say that 'internally' the Labour machine was already engaged in trying to sort things from July? Hence there being some kind of dispute scenario already going on which subsequently became material for LBC?
I must be misunderstanding this bit: 'Last week it emerged that Cressida Dick, head of the Metropolitan Police, had confirmed that her officers were investigating the contents of the leaked dossier from the July disputes panel meeting.'
I believe that is Labour's internal disputes panel meeting. She was given it in September and her officers had been analysing it for a couple of months as the article is from November.
OK I see. It was after LBC got their information that the police became involved seems to be the sequence of events. LBC became aware from a leaked dossier from a 'disputes panel'. I assume the disputes panel was an internal Labour Party mechanism. Would it therefore be right to say that 'internally' the Labour machine was already engaged in trying to sort things from July? Hence there being some kind of dispute scenario already going on which subsequently became material for LBC?
Well done, you've finally read the article you've been commenting on.
Now, all you need to grasp it that despite the threats being known to the party THEY DID NOTHING AND DIDN'T EVEN TELL THE MPs WHO WERE THREATENED.
I must be misunderstanding this bit: 'Last week it emerged that Cressida Dick, head of the Metropolitan Police, had confirmed that her officers were investigating the contents of the leaked dossier from the July disputes panel meeting.'
I believe that is Labour's internal disputes panel meeting. She was given it in September and her officers had been analysing it for a couple of months as the article is from November.
OK I see. It was after LBC got their information that the police became involved seems to be the sequence of events. LBC became aware from a leaked dossier from a 'disputes panel'. I assume the disputes panel was an internal Labour Party mechanism. Would it therefore be right to say that 'internally' the Labour machine was already engaged in trying to sort things from July? Hence there being some kind of dispute scenario already going on which subsequently became material for LBC?
They had been looking at it, clearly, but had done nothing with it, hence why it was leaked, presumably.
They clearly had no intention of raising it with the Police Authorities.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Yes
OK. That interests me. Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 18th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG.
And there you have it. Institutional antisemitism within the labour party that Corbyn isn't, and never will, act against. Words but no deeds.
I'm glad that you finally agree on what Corbyn is.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG.
And there you have it. Institutional antisemitism within the labour party that Corbyn isn't, and never will, act against. Words but no deeds.
I'm glad that you finally agree on what Corbyn is.
You wouldn't be trying to put words into my mouth now would you?
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
The increase is nothing more than the increase in members. The reforms to the process we far greater but that was a particular concern raised by Jewish leaders that met with Corbyn earlier in the year. They have also streamlined the process to speed up anything raised so there appears to have been systematic issues as well. Any change to the process would have to come from the NEC and they had a summer election. So the new NEC, which is considered Corbyn controlled for the first time, started at the begining of September.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Yes
OK. That interests me. Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
The increase is nothing more than the increase in members. The reforms to the process we far greater but that was a particular concern raised by Jewish leaders that met with Corbyn earlier in the year. They have also streamlined the process to speed up anything raised so there appears to have been systematic issues as well. Any change to the process would have to come from the NEC and they had a summer election. So the new NEC, which is considered Corbyn controlled for the first time, started at the begining of September.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Off the top of my head.
Expel racists rather than sending them on "training courses" and letting them continue as councillors. Hold them up as examples of how the party deals with racism.
Don't wait for outside agencies to point out the racism, act on it when it first appears. Monitor Labour party facebook and other social media sites. Be proactive and issue guidelines to all labour social media site admins.
Remind all members of how AS is defined by the IHRA definition.
Have awareness training at all CLPs run by the JLM not tiny antisemitic groups like the so called JVL.
Stop denying there is even a problem (we still read the "there's not evidence, it's all a smear" usually followed by some actual racist conspiracy theory about global bankers/zio-nazis/being in the pay of Israel/Centralist/Red Tory/Blairite insults.
Stop harassing whistle blowers in the party who call out antisemitism.
Stop the deselection and votes of no confidence of MPs on the grounds of joining "Enough is Enough" rallies or speaking out about AS
Sanction CLPs who refused to adopt the IHRA definition or, as in one case wouldn't agree a motion to condemn the shootings in Pittsburgh.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Yes
OK. That interests me. Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Yes
OK. That interests me. Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
I take that as a no then .
Jewish MP's not told of threats to their lives from anti semitic messages. Nothing to do with the fact they're jewish clearly..!
Basically now your only real defence is that the labour party is institutionally incompetent. Which in itself, the buck stops at the leader.
To quote part of a recent speech made in the House of Commons on April 16 by Ruth Smeeth, a Jewish Labour MP. She spoke during a lengthy parliamentary session devoted to anti-Semitism, when many fine speeches were made, and at the end she received a standing ovation. Her words shocked everyone in the chamber:
Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches. My mum was a senior trade union official; my grandad was a blacklisted steelworker who became a miner. I was born into our movement as surely as I was born into my faith. It is a movement that I have worked for, campaigned for and fought for during my entire adult life, so it was truly heart-breaking to find myself in Parliament Square just over three weeks ago, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community against the poison of anti-Semitism that is engulfing parts of my own party and wider political discourse.
If the House will indulge me, I would like to read out a small sample of what I have received on social media...
"Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity."
"Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed."
"Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she's complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down."
"First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party."
"This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types."
"#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour."
"You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn."
"Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I'm ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken."
"Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth."
Truly shocking that Jeremy Corbyn said all that. He should be ashamed.
To quote part of a recent speech made in the House of Commons on April 16 by Ruth Smeeth, a Jewish Labour MP. She spoke during a lengthy parliamentary session devoted to anti-Semitism, when many fine speeches were made, and at the end she received a standing ovation. Her words shocked everyone in the chamber:
Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches. My mum was a senior trade union official; my grandad was a blacklisted steelworker who became a miner. I was born into our movement as surely as I was born into my faith. It is a movement that I have worked for, campaigned for and fought for during my entire adult life, so it was truly heart-breaking to find myself in Parliament Square just over three weeks ago, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community against the poison of anti-Semitism that is engulfing parts of my own party and wider political discourse.
If the House will indulge me, I would like to read out a small sample of what I have received on social media...
"Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity."
"Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed."
"Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she's complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down."
"First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party."
"This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types."
"#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour."
"You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn."
"Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I'm ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken."
"Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth."
Truly shocking that Jeremy Corbyn said all that. He should be ashamed.
Thank you for trivialising and normalising Anti semitism.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Yes
OK. That interests me. Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
I take that as a no then .
Jewish MP's not told of threats to their lives from anti semitic messages. Nothing to do with the fact they're jewish clearly..!
Basically now your only real defence is that the labour party is institutionally incompetent. Which in itself, the buck stops at the leader.
Stop being so obtuse.
You suggest Jewish Labour MPs would not be told of threats but non Jewish MPs would. I asked if you could point me towards evidence of that differentiation. You initially said yes
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
The increase is nothing more than the increase in members. The reforms to the process we far greater but that was a particular concern raised by Jewish leaders that met with Corbyn earlier in the year. They have also streamlined the process to speed up anything raised so there appears to have been systematic issues as well. Any change to the process would have to come from the NEC and they had a summer election. So the new NEC, which is considered Corbyn controlled for the first time, started at the begining of September.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Off the top of my head.
Expel racists rather than sending them on "training courses" and letting them continue as councillors. Hold them up as examples of how the party deals with racism.
Don't wait for outside agencies to point out the racism, act on it when it first appears. Monitor Labour party facebook and other social media sites. Be proactive and issue guidelines to all labour social media site admins.
Remind all members of how AS is defined by the IHRA definition.
Have awareness training at all CLPs run by the JLM not tiny antisemitic groups like the so called JVL.
Stop denying there is even a problem (we still read the "there's not evidence, it's all a smear" usually followed by some actual racist conspiracy theory about global bankers/zio-nazis/being in the pay of Israel/Centralist/Red Tory/Blairite insults.
Stop harassing whistle blowers in the party who call out antisemitism.
Stop the deselection and votes of no confidence of MPs on the grounds of joining "Enough is Enough" rallies or speaking out about AS
Sanction CLPs who refused to adopt the IHRA definition or, as in one case wouldn't agree a motion to condemn the bombings in Pittsburgh.
The first point you raise is a hard one because I believe some racism is borne out of insensitivity and naivety. A course of education or experience is exactly what someone can need. I speak from personal experience, my grandmother lived most of her life as a racist but realised the error of her ways by her death after meeting my black step-mother. Of course if it is a case that is so severe then that person should be dealt with in a punitive manner at the end of the due process.
I agree that the Labour party has been slow with being proactive in the digital realm in this regard. But I can not see how they can ultimately stop harassment, only react to it.
The fact that they hold CPL education courses is surely a good thing? I wonder if any of the other parties do? Now the NEC has adopted the full definition of antisemitism surely these courses will tell that to members?
No-one has denied there is a problem but you. The labour leadership are in agreement, the internal report was in agreement and the independent ones. There is a problem with antisemitism within the Labour party and how it deals with it. But there are factions within the Labour party that have used this to destabilise from within and saying that isn't they same thing as saying there isn't a problem.
Is having a 'disputes panel' (which in my experience of these things is usually wishy washy crap) actually 'doing nothing'? I certainly agree that if the party was getting threats against individuals, particularly MP's, and didn't tell them about it, then it is totally wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Yes
OK. That interests me. Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
I take that as a no then .
Jewish MP's not told of threats to their lives from anti semitic messages. Nothing to do with the fact they're jewish clearly..!
Basically now your only real defence is that the labour party is institutionally incompetent. Which in itself, the buck stops at the leader.
Stop being so obtuse.
You suggest Jewish Labour MPs would not be told of threats but non Jewish MPs would. I asked if you could point me towards evidence of that differentiation. You initially said yes
I said yes, they were not told because they were Jewish. For obvious reasons.
Where’s your evidence that non Jews weren’t told either? What am supposed to provide? Examples of non jewish mps recieving anti semitic death threats?
I literally cannot believe you're defending anti semitism.
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
The increase is nothing more than the increase in members. The reforms to the process we far greater but that was a particular concern raised by Jewish leaders that met with Corbyn earlier in the year. They have also streamlined the process to speed up anything raised so there appears to have been systematic issues as well. Any change to the process would have to come from the NEC and they had a summer election. So the new NEC, which is considered Corbyn controlled for the first time, started at the begining of September.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Off the top of my head.
Expel racists rather than sending them on "training courses" and letting them continue as councillors. Hold them up as examples of how the party deals with racism.
Don't wait for outside agencies to point out the racism, act on it when it first appears. Monitor Labour party facebook and other social media sites. Be proactive and issue guidelines to all labour social media site admins.
Remind all members of how AS is defined by the IHRA definition.
Have awareness training at all CLPs run by the JLM not tiny antisemitic groups like the so called JVL.
Stop denying there is even a problem (we still read the "there's not evidence, it's all a smear" usually followed by some actual racist conspiracy theory about global bankers/zio-nazis/being in the pay of Israel/Centralist/Red Tory/Blairite insults.
Stop harassing whistle blowers in the party who call out antisemitism.
Stop the deselection and votes of no confidence of MPs on the grounds of joining "Enough is Enough" rallies or speaking out about AS
Sanction CLPs who refused to adopt the IHRA definition or, as in one case wouldn't agree a motion to condemn the bombings in Pittsburgh.
The first point you raise is a hard one because I believe some racism is borne out of insensitivity and naivety. A course of education or experience is exactly what someone can need. I speak from personal experience, my grandmother lived most of her life as a racist but realised the error of her ways by her death after meeting my black step-mother. Of course if it is a case that is so severe then that person should be dealt with in a punitive manner at the end of the due process.
I agree that the Labour party has been slow with being proactive in the digital team in this regard. But I can not see how they can ultimately stop harassment, only react to it.
The fact that they hold CPL education courses is surely a good thing? I wonder if any of the other parties do? Now the NEC has adopted the full definition of antisemitism surely these courses will tell that to members?
No-one has denied there is a problem but you. The labour leadership are in agreement, the internal report was in agreement and the independent ones. There is a problem with antisemitism within the Labour party and how it deals with it. But there are factions within the Labour party that has used this to destabilise from within and saying that isn't they same thing as saying there isn't a problem.
When you asked the suggestions for what more could be done, the inference was that there wasn't much more as the party had done so much.
Off the top of my head I gave a list of a lot more.
Surely, you can see the difference between an elderly woman, who credit to her changed her views, and a member and often official representative of a supposedly anti-racist party posting threats and repeating right tropes.
You dodged the key points in most of your replies ie suggesting that education courses are a good thing but my point was about who was delivering them.
As for "no-one has denied there is a problem but you" that is just false and you know it. There was even a tape of a labour party senior official speaking in a meeting, with Corbyn present, asking if anyone had seen or heard any antisemitism to "prove" it wasn't an issue. The "its all a Israeli/Zio-nazi/Rothchilds/MSN smear" line is trotted out all the time. Read the Ruth Smeath speech, read this thread where it's all downplayed, not real, "show me some evidence" "here's some evidence" "not enough, I need more evidence", "here's some more evidence" and on and on.
@thanks for the flag @Wheresmeticket? rather proves my point that some labour supporters still deny there is a problem
Nice edit there with the removal of the "fuck off" reply to @kentaddick s post too which I flagged you for.
To quote part of a recent speech made in the House of Commons on April 16 by Ruth Smeeth, a Jewish Labour MP. She spoke during a lengthy parliamentary session devoted to anti-Semitism, when many fine speeches were made, and at the end she received a standing ovation. Her words shocked everyone in the chamber:
Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches. My mum was a senior trade union official; my grandad was a blacklisted steelworker who became a miner. I was born into our movement as surely as I was born into my faith. It is a movement that I have worked for, campaigned for and fought for during my entire adult life, so it was truly heart-breaking to find myself in Parliament Square just over three weeks ago, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community against the poison of anti-Semitism that is engulfing parts of my own party and wider political discourse.
If the House will indulge me, I would like to read out a small sample of what I have received on social media...
"Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity."
"Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed."
"Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she's complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down."
"First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party."
"This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types."
"#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour."
"You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn."
"Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I'm ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken."
"Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth."
Truly shocking that Jeremy Corbyn said all that. He should be ashamed.
Thank you for trivialising and normalising Anti semitism.
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
The increase is nothing more than the increase in members. The reforms to the process we far greater but that was a particular concern raised by Jewish leaders that met with Corbyn earlier in the year. They have also streamlined the process to speed up anything raised so there appears to have been systematic issues as well. Any change to the process would have to come from the NEC and they had a summer election. So the new NEC, which is considered Corbyn controlled for the first time, started at the begining of September.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Off the top of my head.
Expel racists rather than sending them on "training courses" and letting them continue as councillors. Hold them up as examples of how the party deals with racism.
Don't wait for outside agencies to point out the racism, act on it when it first appears. Monitor Labour party facebook and other social media sites. Be proactive and issue guidelines to all labour social media site admins.
Remind all members of how AS is defined by the IHRA definition.
Have awareness training at all CLPs run by the JLM not tiny antisemitic groups like the so called JVL.
Stop denying there is even a problem (we still read the "there's not evidence, it's all a smear" usually followed by some actual racist conspiracy theory about global bankers/zio-nazis/being in the pay of Israel/Centralist/Red Tory/Blairite insults.
Stop harassing whistle blowers in the party who call out antisemitism.
Stop the deselection and votes of no confidence of MPs on the grounds of joining "Enough is Enough" rallies or speaking out about AS
Sanction CLPs who refused to adopt the IHRA definition or, as in one case wouldn't agree a motion to condemn the bombings in Pittsburgh.
The first point you raise is a hard one because I believe some racism is borne out of insensitivity and naivety. A course of education or experience is exactly what someone can need. I speak from personal experience, my grandmother lived most of her life as a racist but realised the error of her ways by her death after meeting my black step-mother. Of course if it is a case that is so severe then that person should be dealt with in a punitive manner at the end of the due process.
I agree that the Labour party has been slow with being proactive in the digital team in this regard. But I can not see how they can ultimately stop harassment, only react to it.
The fact that they hold CPL education courses is surely a good thing? I wonder if any of the other parties do? Now the NEC has adopted the full definition of antisemitism surely these courses will tell that to members?
No-one has denied there is a problem but you. The labour leadership are in agreement, the internal report was in agreement and the independent ones. There is a problem with antisemitism within the Labour party and how it deals with it. But there are factions within the Labour party that has used this to destabilise from within and saying that isn't they same thing as saying there isn't a problem.
When you asked the suggestions for what more could be done, the inference was that there wasn't much more as the party had done so much.
Off the top of my head I gave a list of a lot more.
You dodged the key points in most of your replies ie suggesting that education courses are a good thing but my point was about who was delivering them.
As for "no-one has denied there is a problem but you" that is just false and you know it. There was even a tape of a labour party senior official speaking in a meeting, with Corbyn present, asking if anyone had seen or heard any antisemitism to "prove" it wasn't an issue. The "its all a Israeli/Zio-nazi/Rothchilds/MSN smear" line is trotted out all the time. Read the Ruth Smeath speech, read this thread where it's all downplayed, not real, "show me some evidence" "here's some evidence" "not enough, I need more evidence", "here's some more evidence" and on and on.
Well that wasn't the inference. I was genuinely interested and I said you had only posted to get rid of Corbyn, which you had.
I'm reminded of David Schnider's qwip of "speak to the Jews, just not those ones" but the truth is I don't know the difference between the the JML or the JVL. I don't feel qualified to talk about it rather than I'm ducking anything. I'm interested to know but not just from you because of your inherent bias. The fact that you seek such negativity from someone trying to engage with you says it all.
I've got no time for Peter Willsman for many by reasons, personally I don't think he should be anywhere near the NEC, but momentum dropped their support of him in August. I am also certain he has been around and on the NEC for decades, he isn't the Labour party and Corbyn being at that meeting does not smear him by association.
Speaking of edits: the part you added about my grandmother, isn't there something in the bible about hate the sin not the sinner? Starting to get the impression you are more of an eye for an eye guy.
When you sling out accusations of anti-semitism against anyone who fails to fall in line with your views do you think you are making a better case?
That's why I think you are manipulative and dishonest.
And, FYI, I actually don't like Corbyn. I don't like his failure to take a stance on Europe or his failure to provide a robust opposition to this bunch of crooks in government. I just don't think he is an antisemite and I don't like the way you are attacking anyone you don't agree with.
The disciplinary panel was inadequate, it met infrequently and had a massive backlog of cases, particularly antisemitic due to the volume. The NEC agreed on Sept 19th to add 14 more members to this panel to try to solve the issue.
Not much, but counts as doing something. There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
The increase is nothing more than the increase in members. The reforms to the process we far greater but that was a particular concern raised by Jewish leaders that met with Corbyn earlier in the year. They have also streamlined the process to speed up anything raised so there appears to have been systematic issues as well. Any change to the process would have to come from the NEC and they had a summer election. So the new NEC, which is considered Corbyn controlled for the first time, started at the begining of September.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Off the top of my head.
Expel racists rather than sending them on "training courses" and letting them continue as councillors. Hold them up as examples of how the party deals with racism.
Don't wait for outside agencies to point out the racism, act on it when it first appears. Monitor Labour party facebook and other social media sites. Be proactive and issue guidelines to all labour social media site admins.
Remind all members of how AS is defined by the IHRA definition.
Have awareness training at all CLPs run by the JLM not tiny antisemitic groups like the so called JVL.
Stop denying there is even a problem (we still read the "there's not evidence, it's all a smear" usually followed by some actual racist conspiracy theory about global bankers/zio-nazis/being in the pay of Israel/Centralist/Red Tory/Blairite insults.
Stop harassing whistle blowers in the party who call out antisemitism.
Stop the deselection and votes of no confidence of MPs on the grounds of joining "Enough is Enough" rallies or speaking out about AS
Sanction CLPs who refused to adopt the IHRA definition or, as in one case wouldn't agree a motion to condemn the bombings in Pittsburgh.
The first point you raise is a hard one because I believe some racism is borne out of insensitivity and naivety. A course of education or experience is exactly what someone can need. I speak from personal experience, my grandmother lived most of her life as a racist but realised the error of her ways by her death after meeting my black step-mother. Of course if it is a case that is so severe then that person should be dealt with in a punitive manner at the end of the due process.
I agree that the Labour party has been slow with being proactive in the digital team in this regard. But I can not see how they can ultimately stop harassment, only react to it.
The fact that they hold CPL education courses is surely a good thing? I wonder if any of the other parties do? Now the NEC has adopted the full definition of antisemitism surely these courses will tell that to members?
No-one has denied there is a problem but you. The labour leadership are in agreement, the internal report was in agreement and the independent ones. There is a problem with antisemitism within the Labour party and how it deals with it. But there are factions within the Labour party that has used this to destabilise from within and saying that isn't they same thing as saying there isn't a problem.
When you asked the suggestions for what more could be done, the inference was that there wasn't much more as the party had done so much.
Off the top of my head I gave a list of a lot more.
Surely, you can see the difference between an elderly woman, who credit to her changed her views, and a member and often official representative of a supposedly anti-racist party posting threats and repeating right tropes.
You dodged the key points in most of your replies ie suggesting that education courses are a good thing but my point was about who was delivering them.
As for "no-one has denied there is a problem but you" that is just false and you know it. There was even a tape of a labour party senior official speaking in a meeting, with Corbyn present, asking if anyone had seen or heard any antisemitism to "prove" it wasn't an issue. The "its all a Israeli/Zio-nazi/Rothchilds/MSN smear" line is trotted out all the time. Read the Ruth Smeath speech, read this thread where it's all downplayed, not real, "show me some evidence" "here's some evidence" "not enough, I need more evidence", "here's some more evidence" and on and on.
@thanks for the flag @Wheresmeticket? rather proves my point that some labour supporters still deny there is a problem
Nice edit there with the removal of the "fuck off" reply to @kentaddick s post too which I flagged you for.
Because after reflection I decided it wasn't necessary.
Comments
It was after LBC got their information that the police became involved seems to be the sequence of events.
LBC became aware from a leaked dossier from a 'disputes panel'.
I assume the disputes panel was an internal Labour Party mechanism.
Would it therefore be right to say that 'internally' the Labour machine was already engaged in trying to sort things from July? Hence there being some kind of dispute scenario already going on which subsequently became material for LBC?
Now, all you need to grasp it that despite the threats being known to the party THEY DID NOTHING AND DIDN'T EVEN TELL THE MPs WHO WERE THREATENED.
They clearly had no intention of raising it with the Police Authorities.
Are you suggesting that in the circumstances because they were Jewish they weren't told, but non Jewish MP's would be?
Can you point me in the direction of any evidence?
There is a case to be made that the system was inadequate, and couldn't react to what seems to have been some kind of increase in incidents. It should have been, and should be now, much better and much swifter.
I'm glad that you finally agree on what Corbyn is.
Without knowing the process or the findings of that July panel no-one has the full picture as to these current allegations. Yes the Labour party needs to take a long hard look at itself, hopefully these changes are a step in the right direction.
I am interested as to what further changes the posters who feel the party has not done enough need to make. They have clearly stated a number of times that the party is racist but haven't suggested anything other than getting rid of Corbyn.
Expel racists rather than sending them on "training courses" and letting them continue as councillors. Hold them up as examples of how the party deals with racism.
Don't wait for outside agencies to point out the racism, act on it when it first appears. Monitor Labour party facebook and other social media sites. Be proactive and issue guidelines to all labour social media site admins.
Remind all members of how AS is defined by the IHRA definition.
Have awareness training at all CLPs run by the JLM not tiny antisemitic groups like the so called JVL.
Stop denying there is even a problem (we still read the "there's not evidence, it's all a smear" usually followed by some actual racist conspiracy theory about global bankers/zio-nazis/being in the pay of Israel/Centralist/Red Tory/Blairite insults.
Stop harassing whistle blowers in the party who call out antisemitism.
Stop the deselection and votes of no confidence of MPs on the grounds of joining "Enough is Enough" rallies or speaking out about AS
Sanction CLPs who refused to adopt the IHRA definition or, as in one case wouldn't agree a motion to condemn the shootings in Pittsburgh.
Do we really, really need to know what this rich bastard thinks?
Basically now your only real defence is that the labour party is institutionally incompetent. Which in itself, the buck stops at the leader.
Stop being so obtuse.
Corbyn's labour ladies and gentlemen.
I asked if you could point me towards evidence of that differentiation.
You initially said yes
I agree that the Labour party has been slow with being proactive in the digital realm in this regard. But I can not see how they can ultimately stop harassment, only react to it.
The fact that they hold CPL education courses is surely a good thing? I wonder if any of the other parties do? Now the NEC has adopted the full definition of antisemitism surely these courses will tell that to members?
No-one has denied there is a problem but you. The labour leadership are in agreement, the internal report was in agreement and the independent ones. There is a problem with antisemitism within the Labour party and how it deals with it. But there are factions within the Labour party that have used this to destabilise from within and saying that isn't they same thing as saying there isn't a problem.
Where’s your evidence that non Jews weren’t told either? What am supposed to provide? Examples of non jewish mps recieving anti semitic death threats?
I literally cannot believe you're defending anti semitism.
Off the top of my head I gave a list of a lot more.
Surely, you can see the difference between an elderly woman, who credit to her changed her views, and a member and often official representative of a supposedly anti-racist party posting threats and repeating right tropes.
You dodged the key points in most of your replies ie suggesting that education courses are a good thing but my point was about who was delivering them.
As for "no-one has denied there is a problem but you" that is just false and you know it. There was even a tape of a labour party senior official speaking in a meeting, with Corbyn present, asking if anyone had seen or heard any antisemitism to "prove" it wasn't an issue. The "its all a Israeli/Zio-nazi/Rothchilds/MSN smear" line is trotted out all the time. Read the Ruth Smeath speech, read this thread where it's all downplayed, not real, "show me some evidence" "here's some evidence" "not enough, I need more evidence", "here's some more evidence" and on and on.
@thanks for the flag @Wheresmeticket? rather proves my point that some labour supporters still deny there is a problem
Nice edit there with the removal of the "fuck off" reply to @kentaddick s post too which I flagged you for.
I'm reminded of David Schnider's qwip of "speak to the Jews, just not those ones" but the truth is I don't know the difference between the the JML or the JVL. I don't feel qualified to talk about it rather than I'm ducking anything. I'm interested to know but not just from you because of your inherent bias. The fact that you seek such negativity from someone trying to engage with you says it all.
I've got no time for Peter Willsman for many by reasons, personally I don't think he should be anywhere near the NEC, but momentum dropped their support of him in August. I am also certain he has been around and on the NEC for decades, he isn't the Labour party and Corbyn being at that meeting does not smear him by association.
Speaking of edits: the part you added about my grandmother, isn't there something in the bible about hate the sin not the sinner? Starting to get the impression you are more of an eye for an eye guy.
Trying to cover up anti semitism again
That's why I think you are manipulative and dishonest.
And, FYI, I actually don't like Corbyn. I don't like his failure to take a stance on Europe or his failure to provide a robust opposition to this bunch of crooks in government. I just don't think he is an antisemite and I don't like the way you are attacking anyone you don't agree with.
But whatever.