@Henry Irving is that really worthy of a flag? You misread what I had written, paraphrased me to forward a position I do not hold and then flagged me for pointing it out. Can't wait for you to go back to the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears running round shouting "bollocks!".
it was for the lazy blood pressure abuse
I didn't misread anything. You tried to be clever with the "what else can we do?" question and then got personal when I gave you big list.
So to use your quote "I want to hear from people but not someone who disagrees with me".
That is your post, I never said that. Quite the opposite in fact. Look @iainment is bang on the money, no-one else wants to read this and you are clearly sensitive. I apologise for any offence caused.
"sensitive" About racism? Why not go the whole hog and say "you've got a chip on your shoulder"?
You and Iainment, two Corbyn supporters BTW, don't want to read it. Fine but since when did you speak for everyone else so you can claim "no one else wants to read this"?
Where did racism come in to it? Stop all this strawman crap. No sensitive, because you have flagged three posts of mine in a row including an apology. no one else wants to read us having an argument, you misread that. Flag away
@Henry Irving is that really worthy of a flag? You misread what I had written, paraphrased me to forward a position I do not hold and then flagged me for pointing it out. Can't wait for you to go back to the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears running round shouting "bollocks!".
it was for the lazy blood pressure abuse
I didn't misread anything. You tried to be clever with the "what else can we do?" question and then got personal when I gave you big list.
So to use your quote "I want to hear from people but not someone who disagrees with me".
That is your post, I never said that. Quite the opposite in fact. Look @iainment is bang on the money, no-one else wants to read this and you are clearly sensitive. I apologise for any offence caused.
"sensitive" About racism? Why not go the whole hog and say "you've got a chip on your shoulder"?
You and Iainment, two Corbyn supporters BTW, don't want to read it. Fine but since when did you speak for everyone else so you can claim "no one else wants to read this"?
Where did racism come in to it? Stop all this strawman crap. No sensitive, because you have flagged three posts of mine in a row including an apology. no one else wants to read us having an argument, you misread that. Flag away
"Where did racism come in to it?" We're discussing antisemitism in the Labour party, that's where the racism come in.
@Henry Irving is that really worthy of a flag? You misread what I had written, paraphrased me to forward a position I do not hold and then flagged me for pointing it out. Can't wait for you to go back to the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears running round shouting "bollocks!".
it was for the lazy blood pressure abuse
I didn't misread anything. You tried to be clever with the "what else can we do?" question and then got personal when I gave you big list.
So to use your quote "I want to hear from people but not someone who disagrees with me".
That is your post, I never said that. Quite the opposite in fact. Look @iainment is bang on the money, no-one else wants to read this and you are clearly sensitive. I apologise for any offence caused.
"sensitive" About racism? Why not go the whole hog and say "you've got a chip on your shoulder"?
You and Iainment, two Corbyn supporters BTW, don't want to read it. Fine but since when did you speak for everyone else so you can claim "no one else wants to read this"?
Where did racism come in to it? Stop all this strawman crap. No sensitive, because you have flagged three posts of mine in a row including an apology. no one else wants to read us having an argument, you misread that. Flag away
"Where did racism come in to it?" We're discussing antisemitism in the Labour party, that's where the racism come in.
I don't think Henry can be accused of flagging anymore, he leaves bunting now!
Phoenix Equity Partners purchased a majority stake in the consultancy from Bootle in 2018; this valued the business at £95 million.[6]
Do we really, really need to know what this rich bastard thinks?
Is he not allowed a voice or an opinion because he's rich?
It’s richism. Rife in the Labour Party and Corbyn is doing nothing to sort it out, in fact he’s at least a large part responsible as he turns a blind eye to it.
@Henry Irving is that really worthy of a flag? You misread what I had written, paraphrased me to forward a position I do not hold and then flagged me for pointing it out. Can't wait for you to go back to the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears running round shouting "bollocks!".
it was for the lazy blood pressure abuse
I didn't misread anything. You tried to be clever with the "what else can we do?" question and then got personal when I gave you big list.
So to use your quote "I want to hear from people but not someone who disagrees with me".
That is your post, I never said that. Quite the opposite in fact. Look @iainment is bang on the money, no-one else wants to read this and you are clearly sensitive. I apologise for any offence caused.
"sensitive" About racism? Why not go the whole hog and say "you've got a chip on your shoulder"?
You and Iainment, two Corbyn supporters BTW, don't want to read it. Fine but since when did you speak for everyone else so you can claim "no one else wants to read this"?
I have been reading the thread. I do support Corbyn. I haven't contributed because it's mainly you just shouting at everything and anyone who doesn't toe your line. I do think there is all sorts of prejudice in the Labour Party (as in British society). I think the explosion in the membership of the party has meant the structures have not been able to keep pace with members who breach. Which isn't all Corbyn's fault. I think it's possible that politicians can speak to those with horrible views and it not mean they are 100% in their thrall. I agree Corbyn hasn't been as good as I hoped as leader. Given his history I do not believe Corbyn is at all consciously or deliberately racist. I have not seen any of what you describe in my contacts with the Labour Party. Which no doubt you will now pour scorn and bile on. Which is why I think this thread has little value because it's just a succession of me, me, me points.
If Jewish Labour MPs and officials are being trolled with anti-semetic remarks and threats on Twitter they don't need to be told about them by Labour, they already know. If they don't read posts they should delete their twitter account. The party admin of largely volunteers can only do so much to police a membership of half a million. Speaking of police, race hate crime is their job. Unlike the Labour Party they can access account details to ID real individuals.
To quote part of a recent speech made in the House of Commons on April 16 by Ruth Smeeth, a Jewish Labour MP. She spoke during a lengthy parliamentary session devoted to anti-Semitism, when many fine speeches were made, and at the end she received a standing ovation. Her words shocked everyone in the chamber:
Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches. My mum was a senior trade union official; my grandad was a blacklisted steelworker who became a miner. I was born into our movement as surely as I was born into my faith. It is a movement that I have worked for, campaigned for and fought for during my entire adult life, so it was truly heart-breaking to find myself in Parliament Square just over three weeks ago, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community against the poison of anti-Semitism that is engulfing parts of my own party and wider political discourse.
If the House will indulge me, I would like to read out a small sample of what I have received on social media...
"Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity."
"Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed."
"Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she's complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down."
"First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party."
"This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types."
"#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour."
"You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn."
"Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I'm ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken."
"Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth."
No surprise that the internet is chite. Personally I don't have twitter. From a distance and an admitted position of ignorance Twitter seems a platform for morons and liars...Trump for example.
who isn't a racist... since he hasn't said or done anything racist and says he doesn't like racism.
If Jewish Labour MPs and officials are being trolled with anti-semetic remarks and threats on Twitter they don't need to be told about them by Labour, they already know. If they don't read posts they should delete their twitter account. The party admin of largely volunteers can only do so much to police a membership of half a million. Speaking of police, race hate crime is their job. Unlike the Labour Party they can access account details to ID real individuals.
Anyone else think of the young ones when they read that?
Here's an Israeli train just to keep spirits up during the more heated parts of the debate.
That’s a nice looking train. Say what you want about the Israeli’s (well don’t because it’s orobably anti-Semitic) but there is some world leading tech developed in Israel.
I have now lost touch with a Brazilian friend who was a materials guy and spent time in Israel helping with it. Over 15 years ago now and it was cutting edge at the time.
Wrote the above before checking up, seems there is some doubt as to whether the drip feed is really better but absolutely no doubt Israel is high up in the water management leagues.
Not sure that qualifies the Israeli regime as high in the League of Nations to like and Jeremy Corbyn does generally like to look to the people even if the people are oppressed.
IRA, PLO goodness me even Nelson Mandela.
I can’t fault his back bench belief in human rights myself, although many would. What I can’t stand is that is he is a fucking ineffectual leader who is slow waltzing our country into Brexit.
Grow a pair? JC is in a Brexit dichotomy where 60% of the party supporters voted leave. He is on record as a remainder. If he came out to Remain he would lose any election. He is already dealing with nefarious anti-semetic allegations and initial wholesale shadow ministerial resignations. He is not in power. He is doing his best to get 15 Tory Brexiteers onside for a VoNC. What more can he do but let the Tories continually shoot themselves in the foot?
Grow a pair? JC is in a Brexit dichotomy where 60% of the party supporters voted leave. He is on record as a remainder. If he came out to Remain he would lose any election. He is already dealing with nefarious anti-semetic allegations and initial wholesale shadow ministerial resignations. He is not in power. He is doing his best to get 15 Tory Brexiteers onside for a VoNC. What more can he do but let the Tories continually shoot themselves in the foot?
I enjoy reading your posts, and wouldn't pick any holes in them, even if I spotted any. But in this case, I wanted to point out a weird anomaly. Labour supporters' views on Brexit are an odd mix.
Roughly 60% of voters in Labour constituencies voted to Leave. And it's roughly true to say that 6 out of 10 Labour MPs represent Leave-voting constituencies.
But 65% of Labour supporters voted to Remain.
This puts Corbyn in a really straightened position. His dichotomy is should he support Leave, to match the majority of his MPs' constituencies' voters? Or should he support Remain to match the aspirations of the majority of his supporters?
I might turn things on its head. We have the weakest, dodgiest, least electable leader of the opposition since (work with me here... None of the Tory leaders from Hague to Howard, and that slap headed fanny who has since been responsible for lots of deaths in between, are allowed to count for comedic purposes) and yet he hasn't been buried by the government? They must be proper tosh.
Grow a pair? JC is in a Brexit dichotomy where 60% of the party supporters voted leave. He is on record as a remainder. If he came out to Remain he would lose any election. He is already dealing with nefarious anti-semetic allegations and initial wholesale shadow ministerial resignations. He is not in power. He is doing his best to get 15 Tory Brexiteers onside for a VoNC. What more can he do but let the Tories continually shoot themselves in the foot?
I enjoy reading your posts, and wouldn't pick any holes in them, even if I spotted any. But in this case, I wanted to point out a weird anomaly. Labour supporters' views on Brexit are an odd mix.
Roughly 60% of voters in Labour constituencies voted to Leave. And it's roughly true to say that 6 out of 10 Labour MPs represent Leave-voting constituencies.
But 65% of Labour supporters voted to Remain.
This puts Corbyn in a really straightened position. His dichotomy is should he support Leave, to match the majority of his MPs' constituencies' voters? Or should he support Remain to match the aspirations of the majority of his supporters?
Would that be would be mate up of well-to-do liberals in Cities? I'd hazard a guess that most true Labour areas up north (Doncaster etc.) were pretty much all leave
a long post for you @seth plum and the other "where is the evidence?" seekers
Profile picture Sara Gibbs @Sara_Rose_G a day ago, 10 tweets, 2 min read Read on Twitter
There’s a huge issue with educating people about antisemitism on the left, because it requires people to understand thousands of years of the history of the persecution of the Jewish people & how those tropes manifest today & then make incredibly nuanced & careful distinctions.
First of all it’s asking people to familiarise themselves with antisemitic tropes & the ways in which they’ve manifested over centuries on both the left & right. It requires people to understand pogroms, expulsions & the Holocaust - everything that led us to this point.
It’s then asking them to understand why Jewish activists feel more hurt, let down & frightened by the left no longer feeling like a safe space for them than they do by the right-wing racism they were fighting from a left-wing position in the first place.
Then there’s taking all of this information & unpicking the thorny issue of anti-Israel vs antisemitism. Understanding that most Jews don’t automatically conflate the two, but are aware of when Israel is used as a cover for AS & when AS tropes are used to criticise Israel.
Once you’ve got to the point where you understand AS tropes, their history & how they manifest now on both left & right, you have the complicated history of the players involved in the Labour Party & the many incidents, small & large, which have painted a worrying picture.
Bear in mind that most people who are not convinced will then argue, from a defensive position in the most exhausting way. If by some miracle they grasp the rest of it, they will unpick each incident individually to find a point of plausible deniability, ignoring the big picture.
So say I had several hundred people yesterday demanding “evidence” of antisemitism in the Labour Party. For those following the story there has been daily evidence of institutionalised racism. This doesn’t mean, btw, that all members are racist nor are the party’s policies.
They are not only asking me to condense 3 years now of near-daily disappointments, they are asking me to put this within a wider context that will take me hours to explain & articulate, all while I’m being shouted down or called a liar / Zionist agent / someone with an agenda.
I am tempted to put together a more comprehensive educational resource on antisemitism for people who *genuinely* don’t know and want to learn - but I’m also wary of opening myself up to the Twitter debating society of people who feel entitled to my time.
So when we say “believe Jews”, we do so for the sake of our time & our mental health. Trust me when I say there is no lack of evidence - there is just a lack of energy to explain it 5000 times a day when it’s *so* complex & the demand for evidence is not a good-faith one.
The first to this was, unbelievably missing the point and not understanding what AS is.
Replying to @Sara_Rose_G I agree with you antisemitism is a big issue but i think racism is even more common and urgent to remove. Hate between humans is very scary
I understand this sentiment comes from a well-meaning place but 1) antisemitism is racism 2) it’s not a competition, we can advocate for everyone and 3) making it a competition is widely used as an excuse to dismiss Jews’ concerns & exclude them from those protections.
But this reply sums it up really and is why @kentaddick, I and others try to explain but still can't through to many.
Another problem is many on the Left believe they're against racism, so they can't see their own prejudice against Jewish people, They insist anti Semitism is from the Right. Some will oppose anti Semitism when it comes from the Right but still deny it's present in the Left.
Interestingly the article says her position is that not all party members are racist, not are the party's policies. In any institution long standing prejudices need to be tackled in a very robust way. I remember hearing about the slaughter of Jews in history, York in 1190 for example, so I am aware that hatred of Jews, which is irrational scapegoating by the way, runs deep everywhere and for thousands of years. Probably in many political parties too. However in this thread about Corbyn I accept fully that his leadership in this matter could be better, there are always improvements to be made, but there is no convincing evidence that Corbyn himself is an anti semite or a racist or a 'friend' of terrorists. Not is there an abundance of evidence that anti semitism is rife throughout the Labour Party. Vigilance and reform is always appropriate. On a personal level my paternal grandmother was Jewish (pogrom escapee) and I would not want to be part of anything that dishonored her memory.
Interestingly the article says her position is that not all party members are racist, not are the party's policies. In any institution long standing prejudices need to be tackled in a very robust way. I remember hearing about the slaughter of Jews in history, York in 1190 for example, so I am aware that hatred of Jews, which is irrational scapegoating by the way, runs deep everywhere and for thousands of years. Probably in many political parties too. However in this thread about Corbyn I accept fully that his leadership in this matter could be better, there are always improvements to be made, but there is no convincing evidence that Corbyn himself is an anti semite or a racist or a 'friend' of terrorists. Not is there an abundance of evidence that anti semitism is rife throughout the Labour Party. Vigilance and reform is always appropriate. On a personal level my paternal grandmother was Jewish (pogrom escapee) and I would not want to be part of anything that dishonored her memory.
Come on seth, you're being bombarded with evidence and then not 2 pages later you keep repeating the same rubbish that has been repeatedly proven and/or disproven.
Comments
Where did racism come in to it? Stop all this strawman crap. No sensitive, because you have flagged three posts of mine in a row including an apology. no one else wants to read us having an argument, you misread that. Flag away
Here's an Israeli train just to keep spirits up during the more heated parts of the debate.
Gillingham 1
Wrong thread I know
But for fuck sake lighten up people.
I do support Corbyn.
I haven't contributed because it's mainly you just shouting at everything and anyone who doesn't toe your line.
I do think there is all sorts of prejudice in the Labour Party (as in British society).
I think the explosion in the membership of the party has meant the structures have not been able to keep pace with members who breach. Which isn't all Corbyn's fault.
I think it's possible that politicians can speak to those with horrible views and it not mean they are 100% in their thrall.
I agree Corbyn hasn't been as good as I hoped as leader.
Given his history I do not believe Corbyn is at all consciously or deliberately racist.
I have not seen any of what you describe in my contacts with the Labour Party.
Which no doubt you will now pour scorn and bile on. Which is why I think this thread has little value because it's just a succession of me, me, me points.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html
I have now lost touch with a Brazilian friend who was a materials guy and spent time in Israel helping with it. Over 15 years ago now and it was cutting edge at the time.
Wrote the above before checking up, seems there is some doubt as to whether the drip feed is really better but absolutely no doubt Israel is high up in the water management leagues.
Not sure that qualifies the Israeli regime as high in the League of Nations to like and Jeremy Corbyn does generally like to look to the people even if the people are oppressed.
IRA, PLO goodness me even Nelson Mandela.
I can’t fault his back bench belief in human rights myself, although many would. What I can’t stand is that is he is a fucking ineffectual leader who is slow waltzing our country into Brexit.
Grow a pair mate.
I enjoy reading your posts, and wouldn't pick any holes in them, even if I spotted any. But in this case, I wanted to point out a weird anomaly. Labour supporters' views on Brexit are an odd mix.
Roughly 60% of voters in Labour constituencies voted to Leave. And it's roughly true to say that 6 out of 10 Labour MPs represent Leave-voting constituencies.
But 65% of Labour supporters voted to Remain.
This puts Corbyn in a really straightened position. His dichotomy is should he support Leave, to match the majority of his MPs' constituencies' voters? Or should he support Remain to match the aspirations of the majority of his supporters?
Sigh.
Antisemitic and a liar caught in the lie.
Is this man still a Labour member or an official?
I am assuming that any acceptance of change in the man is not forthcoming.
He has been suspended but only because his antisemitism was raised by the Sunday Times.
He now claims to have changed but it has already been proved that he lied about not posting these antisemetic post since joining the party.
Profile picture
Sara Gibbs
@Sara_Rose_G
a day ago, 10 tweets, 2 min read Read on Twitter
There’s a huge issue with educating people about antisemitism on the left, because it requires people to understand thousands of years of the history of the persecution of the Jewish people & how those tropes manifest today & then make incredibly nuanced & careful distinctions.
First of all it’s asking people to familiarise themselves with antisemitic tropes & the ways in which they’ve manifested over centuries on both the left & right. It requires people to understand pogroms, expulsions & the Holocaust - everything that led us to this point.
It’s then asking them to understand why Jewish activists feel more hurt, let down & frightened by the left no longer feeling like a safe space for them than they do by the right-wing racism they were fighting from a left-wing position in the first place.
Then there’s taking all of this information & unpicking the thorny issue of anti-Israel vs antisemitism. Understanding that most Jews don’t automatically conflate the two, but are aware of when Israel is used as a cover for AS & when AS tropes are used to criticise Israel.
Once you’ve got to the point where you understand AS tropes, their history & how they manifest now on both left & right, you have the complicated history of the players involved in the Labour Party & the many incidents, small & large, which have painted a worrying picture.
Bear in mind that most people who are not convinced will then argue, from a defensive position in the most exhausting way. If by some miracle they grasp the rest of it, they will unpick each incident individually to find a point of plausible deniability, ignoring the big picture.
So say I had several hundred people yesterday demanding “evidence” of antisemitism in the Labour Party. For those following the story there has been daily evidence of institutionalised racism. This doesn’t mean, btw, that all members are racist nor are the party’s policies.
They are not only asking me to condense 3 years now of near-daily disappointments, they are asking me to put this within a wider context that will take me hours to explain & articulate, all while I’m being shouted down or called a liar / Zionist agent / someone with an agenda.
I am tempted to put together a more comprehensive educational resource on antisemitism for people who *genuinely* don’t know and want to learn - but I’m also wary of opening myself up to the Twitter debating society of people who feel entitled to my time.
So when we say “believe Jews”, we do so for the sake of our time & our mental health. Trust me when I say there is no lack of evidence - there is just a lack of energy to explain it 5000 times a day when it’s *so* complex & the demand for evidence is not a good-faith one.
Replying to @Sara_Rose_G
I agree with you antisemitism is a big issue but i think racism is even more common and urgent to remove. Hate between humans is very scary
To which the reply was
@Sara_Rose_G
I understand this sentiment comes from a well-meaning place but 1) antisemitism is racism 2) it’s not a competition, we can advocate for everyone and 3) making it a competition is widely used as an excuse to dismiss Jews’ concerns & exclude them from those protections.
But this reply sums it up really and is why @kentaddick, I and others try to explain but still can't through to many.
@AngusTCat
Another problem is many on the Left believe they're against racism, so they can't see their own prejudice against Jewish people, They insist anti Semitism is from the Right. Some will oppose anti Semitism when it comes from the Right but still deny it's present in the Left.
In any institution long standing prejudices need to be tackled in a very robust way. I remember hearing about the slaughter of Jews in history, York in 1190 for example, so I am aware that hatred of Jews, which is irrational scapegoating by the way, runs deep everywhere and for thousands of years.
Probably in many political parties too.
However in this thread about Corbyn I accept fully that his leadership in this matter could be better, there are always improvements to be made, but there is no convincing evidence that Corbyn himself is an anti semite or a racist or a 'friend' of terrorists. Not is there an abundance of evidence that anti semitism is rife throughout the Labour Party. Vigilance and reform is always appropriate.
On a personal level my paternal grandmother was Jewish (pogrom escapee) and I would not want to be part of anything that dishonored her memory.
Come on seth, you're being bombarded with evidence and then not 2 pages later you keep repeating the same rubbish that has been repeatedly proven and/or disproven.