It seems you can criticise the players all you like and even call them unprofessional and rubbish as many Bowyer supporters have done, but you can't do the same to him if you believe he is the problem.
I think the complete opposite is happening. ‘The players all are shit and this is only one persons fault’
the reality is a lot of people want him out for many different reasons. Your just all inadvertently contradict each other.
This is a perfect example of finding it easy to point out negatives over any positives.
What positives?
What we are seeing on the pitch is not a direct result of anything that's happened over the last year off the pitch. We can argue back and forth quite how good the players are, or aren't. One thing we probably all can agree on is the players are better than a relegation battle to avoid the 4th tier. Which if nothing changes, we will be in, in a few weeks time.
Even last season you could take the positives of the Doughty, Bonne and Philips cementing their places as 1st team players and becoming sellable assets (which this club has always relied upon).
We are going to go into the summer with even less players under contract than last summer.
Agreed, there's a real lack of saleable assets. Normally in a struggling team there's usually at least someone who's stepped up, but instead our best performers are loan players or out of contract.
The players we've signed on contracts beyond the summer - Washington, Gilbey, Gunter, Innis, DJ, Schwartz - none of them will have rival clubs fighting over them if we don't go up, either because of their injury record (Inniss) or their performances for us
It's not the fact you want to sell them, this summer, it's the fact you want to build your team around them next season.
Even "doing a Powell" ment keeping Solly, Jackson and BWP in the first team and Doughty, Wagstaff and Benson as squad players at the start. Plus the keeper situation didn't come to a head until the season stated so that would have been another player.
It seems you can criticise the players all you like and even call them unprofessional and rubbish as many Bowyer supporters have done, but you can't do the same to him if you believe he is the problem.
I think the complete opposite is happening. ‘The players all are shit and this is only one persons fault’
the reality is a lot of people want him out for many different reasons. Your just all inadvertently contradict each other.
This is a perfect example of finding it easy to point out negatives over any positives.
What positives?
What we are seeing on the pitch is not a direct result of anything that's happened over the last year off the pitch. We can argue back and forth quite how good the players are, or aren't. One thing we probably all can agree on is the players are better than a relegation battle to avoid the 4th tier. Which if nothing changes, we will be in, in a few weeks time.
Even last season you could take the positives of the Doughty, Bonne and Philips cementing their places as 1st team players and becoming sellable assets (which this club has always relied upon).
We are going to go into the summer with even less players under contract than last summer.
Agreed, there's a real lack of saleable assets. Normally in a struggling team there's usually at least someone who's stepped up, but instead our best performers are loan players or out of contract.
The players we've signed on contracts beyond the summer - Washington, Gilbey, Gunter, Innis, DJ, Schwartz - none of them will have rival clubs fighting over them if we don't go up, either because of their injury record (Inniss) or their performances for us
It's not the fact you want to sell them, this summer, it's the fact you want to build your team around them next season.
Even "doing a Powell" ment keeping Solly, Jackson and BWP in the first team and Doughty, Wagstaff and Benson as squad players at the start. Plus the keeper situation didn't come to a head until the season stated so that would have been another player.
What I meant was that, while you don't want to sell your best players, it's a positive sign that other clubs would want to sign them, as that shows that your player recruitment AND development are working.
Brentford has consistently sold players at a big profit, both because their recruitment is very good, but also because they then improve them. How much value has Toney put on in 6 months?
Yes, I'd be ok if any of it was as isolated thing. Halo's can slip and it can be a learning point. We have all probably said things we regret at some point. If Bowyer came out and admitted he had got things wrong, said he was going to apologise to his players and create a fresh start, I would be ok too.
But I am looking at this from how players would look at it and I don't think our on the pitch issues can be pointed at them. Ultimately, Bowyer can't go out on the pitch with his coaching staff and win us any games. It is the team that can do that, and they are not a bad squad for League One. Top 6 easily.
For god sake Muttley, I can’t take any more of this without saying something. Why the apostrophe in halo’s?!
Yes, I'd be ok if any of it was as isolated thing. Halo's can slip and it can be a learning point. We have all probably said things we regret at some point. If Bowyer came out and admitted he had got things wrong, said he was going to apologise to his players and create a fresh start, I would be ok too.
But I am looking at this from how players would look at it and I don't think our on the pitch issues can be pointed at them. Ultimately, Bowyer can't go out on the pitch with his coaching staff and win us any games. It is the team that can do that, and they are not a bad squad for League One. Top 6 easily.
For god sake Muttley, I can’t take any more of this without saying something. Why the apostrophe in halo’s?!
Yes, I'd be ok if any of it was as isolated thing. Halo's can slip and it can be a learning point. We have all probably said things we regret at some point. If Bowyer came out and admitted he had got things wrong, said he was going to apologise to his players and create a fresh start, I would be ok too.
But I am looking at this from how players would look at it and I don't think our on the pitch issues can be pointed at them. Ultimately, Bowyer can't go out on the pitch with his coaching staff and win us any games. It is the team that can do that, and they are not a bad squad for League One. Top 6 easily.
For god sake Muttley, I can’t take any more of this without saying something. Why the apostrophe in halo’s?!
But I only wanted him out when he started being ultra negative and digging out players. I was very positive towards him before that.
Quote button is your friend Mutts, hard to keep up with who you are responding to without the use of it.
Apologies. I don't think it is hard to work out the point I am making though whether you agree with it or not.
For what it's worth Muttley I agree with your thoughts on this whole sordid mess... LB needs to go or relegation is a strong possibility.
I've always found your postings to be very balanced so I'm a bit gobsmacked at some of the comments made towards you but this is what supporting Charlton is like... A big family who don't always agree with each other but the love of the club doesn't change!
i watch the games with a gallows type humour now - the mistakes we make, the starting line ups and the number of substitutions is just comical - i'm beyond caring this season - i don't think we'll be relegated so i just treat it as comedy until the axe swoops and we can start to re build
this will go down in the history books as 'The Lockdown Ridiculous Season'. I think having no fans in the ground has enabled this coz i'm pretty sure things would have been brought to a head by now if fans were in the ground - its been a 'unique' season, there's no doubt about that!!!
But I only wanted him out when he started being ultra negative and digging out players. I was very positive towards him before that.
Quote button is your friend Mutts, hard to keep up with who you are responding to without the use of it.
Apologies. I don't think it is hard to work out the point I am making though whether you agree with it or not.
For what it's worth Muttley I agree with your thoughts on this whole sordid mess... LB needs to go or relegation is a strong possibility.
I've always found your postings to be very balanced so I'm a bit gobsmacked at some of the comments made towards you but this is what supporting Charlton is like... A big family who don't always agree with each other but the love of the club doesn't change!
I'm not bothered about it mate. I called this a few months back when we still had a chance of a winning season. The people trying to land the blows are the ostriches and it is usually the messenger these people aim at. It was the same with Southall. All good here, apart from one big fat wasted season that could unthinkably get worse.
A question to those that think Bowyer is CURRENTLY doing a good job as manager.
If you have lost your two centre halves through injury and are shipping goals as a result, what would be the sensible thing to do to try and prevent teams scoring ?
Bowyer tried Gunter and Pratley but did not protect them sufficiently and it failed.
Eventually Pearce and Oshilaja returned from injury and he obviously knew their deficiencies, but he didn't protect them sufficiently either.
Famewo (not totally fit) returns to play alongside Oshilaja and he still offers them little protection.
I won't go back to November, because there is little point, but what he has done in the last 2 games?
Against Burton he played (attacking) wing back AND wingers And he had Oshilaja over lapping down the left wing. Effectively playing 3 left wingers and 2 right wingers and no protection for the centre backs, even though Oshilaja is shooting off down the left wing as well.
Against Blackpool he still plays 2 wingers (if you're doing that they have got to win you the game or it's a bit like playing with 9 men.
But no he compounds the weakness of 2 v 4 in midfield by playing Shinnie and Pratley. Shinnie can't tackle effectively and so Pratley is up to a point trying to stop 4 midfielders by himself.
Is it any wonder that Pratley was charging round the pitch like a lunatic desperately trying to stop Blackpool single handed and fouling all and sundry as a result?
Then when everyone could see Pratley was likely to get sent off, having had numerous warnings and a yellow card he didn't sub him.
I'll only touch on picking the wrong players and formation most games resulting in him making numerous substitutions EVERY game.
The Blackpool manager knew it, all the other managers knew it and even most of our fans can see it (not all).
The obvious answer is you make your team hard to beat you don't play wingers and wing backs and overlapping centre halves, you keep it tight, not wide open.
You play 3/4 in the middle and you defend from front to back with 2 banks of players in front of your defence, so that much of the time the opposition can't get at your weak defence.
It's so simple and yet 3 months later Bowyer continues to make matters worse each game.
Bowyer demonstrated he could manage good players when they were winning. But he has failed miserably in showing the slightest understanding that he can set up a team to defend as a team and protect his defence and keeper from players being able to shoot unchallenged every single game.
I don't disagree with a lot of points you're making CE but think back to only two games ago, isn't the defensively solid formation how he set us up against Burton? We had seven defensive minded players in front of Amos and a front three of Millar, DJ & Stockley.
Burton still managed to score twice. Bowyer got slated for being too negative, worrying too much about what the opposition does and not thinking about what kind of problems we can cause them with our own players.
A question to those that think Bowyer is CURRENTLY doing a good job as manager.
If you have lost your two centre halves through injury and are shipping goals as a result, what would be the sensible thing to do to try and prevent teams scoring ?
Bowyer tried Gunter and Pratley but did not protect them sufficiently and it failed.
Eventually Pearce and Oshilaja returned from injury and he obviously knew their deficiencies, but he didn't protect them sufficiently either.
Famewo (not totally fit) returns to play alongside Oshilaja and he still offers them little protection.
I won't go back to November, because there is little point, but what he has done in the last 2 games?
Against Burton he played (attacking) wing back AND wingers And he had Oshilaja over lapping down the left wing. Effectively playing 3 left wingers and 2 right wingers and no protection for the centre backs, even though Oshilaja is shooting off down the left wing as well.
Against Blackpool he still plays 2 wingers (if you're doing that they have got to win you the game or it's a bit like playing with 9 men.
But no he compounds the weakness of 2 v 4 in midfield by playing Shinnie and Pratley. Shinnie can't tackle effectively and so Pratley is up to a point trying to stop 4 midfielders by himself.
Is it any wonder that Pratley was charging round the pitch like a lunatic desperately trying to stop Blackpool single handed and fouling all and sundry as a result?
Then when everyone could see Pratley was likely to get sent off, having had numerous warnings and a yellow card he didn't sub him.
I'll only touch on picking the wrong players and formation most games resulting in him making numerous substitutions EVERY game.
The Blackpool manager knew it, all the other managers knew it and even most of our fans can see it (not all).
The obvious answer is you make your team hard to beat you don't play wingers and wing backs and overlapping centre halves, you keep it tight, not wide open.
You play 3/4 in the middle and you defend from front to back with 2 banks of players in front of your defence, so that much of the time the opposition can't get at your weak defence.
It's so simple and yet 3 months later Bowyer continues to make matters worse each game.
Bowyer demonstrated he could manage good players when they were winning. But he has failed miserably in showing the slightest understanding that he can set up a team to defend as a team and protect his defence and keeper from players being able to shoot unchallenged every single game.
Quite honestly it is staggering after 3 months.
Good post. He possibly could give Millar a free role behind the front two of Aneke and Stockley at the Valley but effectively two in midfield is suicidal.
A question to those that think Bowyer is CURRENTLY doing a good job as manager.
If you have lost your two centre halves through injury and are shipping goals as a result, what would be the sensible thing to do to try and prevent teams scoring ?
Bowyer tried Gunter and Pratley but did not protect them sufficiently and it failed.
Eventually Pearce and Oshilaja returned from injury and he obviously knew their deficiencies, but he didn't protect them sufficiently either.
Famewo (not totally fit) returns to play alongside Oshilaja and he still offers them little protection.
I won't go back to November, because there is little point, but what he has done in the last 2 games?
Against Burton he played (attacking) wing back AND wingers And he had Oshilaja over lapping down the left wing. Effectively playing 3 left wingers and 2 right wingers and no protection for the centre backs, even though Oshilaja is shooting off down the left wing as well.
Against Blackpool he still plays 2 wingers (if you're doing that they have got to win you the game or it's a bit like playing with 9 men.
But no he compounds the weakness of 2 v 4 in midfield by playing Shinnie and Pratley. Shinnie can't tackle effectively and so Pratley is up to a point trying to stop 4 midfielders by himself.
Is it any wonder that Pratley was charging round the pitch like a lunatic desperately trying to stop Blackpool single handed and fouling all and sundry as a result?
Then when everyone could see Pratley was likely to get sent off, having had numerous warnings and a yellow card he didn't sub him.
I'll only touch on picking the wrong players and formation most games resulting in him making numerous substitutions EVERY game.
The Blackpool manager knew it, all the other managers knew it and even most of our fans can see it (not all).
The obvious answer is you make your team hard to beat you don't play wingers and wing backs and overlapping centre halves, you keep it tight, not wide open.
You play 3/4 in the middle and you defend from front to back with 2 banks of players in front of your defence, so that much of the time the opposition can't get at your weak defence.
It's so simple and yet 3 months later Bowyer continues to make matters worse each game.
Bowyer demonstrated he could manage good players when they were winning. But he has failed miserably in showing the slightest understanding that he can set up a team to defend as a team and protect his defence and keeper from players being able to shoot unchallenged every single game.
Quite honestly it is staggering after 3 months.
Good post. He possibly could give Millar a free role behind the front two of Aneke and Stockley at the Valley but effectively two in midfield is suicidal.
Not for 4 games, possibly more if we get called out as making a frivolous appeal. Osei Sankofa style.
But I only wanted him out when he started being ultra negative and digging out players. I was very positive towards him before that.
Quote button is your friend Mutts, hard to keep up with who you are responding to without the use of it.
Apologies. I don't think it is hard to work out the point I am making though whether you agree with it or not.
For what it's worth Muttley I agree with your thoughts on this whole sordid mess... LB needs to go or relegation is a strong possibility.
I've always found your postings to be very balanced so I'm a bit gobsmacked at some of the comments made towards you but this is what supporting Charlton is like... A big family who don't always agree with each other but the love of the club doesn't change!
I'm not bothered about it mate. I called this a few months back when we still had a chance of a winning season. The people trying to land the blows are the ostriches and it is usually the messenger these people aim at. It was the same with Southall. All good here, apart from one big fat wasted season that could unthinkably get worse.
I think we are a bit to blame for this mess and for my part I apologise to Thomas. We were jumping up and down, me included, because Southall seemed to be stalling on Bowyer's contract. To mitigate, this was at a time when there was no evidence he was losing it.
Bowyer is a bit to blame, but only if you want to say he is loyal. If not he was merely using the situation to benefit himself which isn't a crime. He knew he had Southall over a barrel. Of course on a professional level, nobody would begrudge Bowyer these wages when earned and playing in one division off the top one, but he isn't performing now and clearly is benefitting more than he should for failure.
I don't think this is fair at all. I think I recall Southall saying to Bowyer in the press conference and Bowyer speaking afterwards that he could have a 5 year contract and he said no it was too long and agreed a 3 year contract. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
I doubt they are ok with it. What we have learned is that sacking Bowyer will blow a massive hole in the League One budget. Money that wasn't part of the plan to spend. IMO Bowyer has (proverbial) the club over.
This is very sad because Bowyer wasn't always like this, but whilst he is in the job he may do something that deserves a proper sacking. He does have a history of it after all.
You are simply into wild speculation now and presenting it as fact.That is not fair.
Comments
Even "doing a Powell" ment keeping Solly, Jackson and BWP in the first team and Doughty, Wagstaff and Benson as squad players at the start. Plus the keeper situation didn't come to a head until the season stated so that would have been another player.
Brentford has consistently sold players at a big profit, both because their recruitment is very good, but also because they then improve them. How much value has Toney put on in 6 months?
Sorry, thought it was funny at the time,
I've always found your postings to be very balanced so I'm a bit gobsmacked at some of the comments made towards you but this is what supporting Charlton is like... A big family who don't always agree with each other but the love of the club doesn't change!
If you have lost your two centre halves through injury and are shipping goals as a result, what would be the sensible thing to do to try and prevent teams scoring ?
Bowyer tried Gunter and Pratley but did not protect them sufficiently and it failed.
Eventually Pearce and Oshilaja returned from injury and he obviously knew their deficiencies, but he didn't protect them sufficiently either.
Famewo (not totally fit) returns to play alongside Oshilaja and he still offers them little protection.
I won't go back to November, because there is little point, but what he has done in the last 2 games?
Against Burton he played (attacking) wing back AND wingers And he had Oshilaja over lapping down the left wing. Effectively playing 3 left wingers and 2 right wingers and no protection for the centre backs, even though Oshilaja is shooting off down the left wing as well.
Against Blackpool he still plays 2 wingers (if you're doing that they have got to win you the game or it's a bit like playing with 9 men.
But no he compounds the weakness of 2 v 4 in midfield by playing Shinnie and Pratley.
Shinnie can't tackle effectively and so Pratley is up to a point trying to stop 4 midfielders by himself.
Is it any wonder that Pratley was charging round the pitch like a lunatic desperately trying to stop Blackpool single handed and fouling all and sundry as a result?
Then when everyone could see Pratley was likely to get sent off, having had numerous warnings and a yellow card he didn't sub him.
I'll only touch on picking the wrong players and formation most games resulting in him making numerous substitutions EVERY game.
The Blackpool manager knew it, all the other managers knew it and even most of our fans can see it (not all).
The obvious answer is you make your team hard to beat you don't play wingers and wing backs and overlapping centre halves, you keep it tight, not wide open.
You play 3/4 in the middle and you defend from front to back with 2 banks of players in front of your defence, so that much of the time the opposition can't get at your weak defence.
It's so simple and yet 3 months later Bowyer continues to make matters worse each game.
Bowyer demonstrated he could manage good players when they were winning.
But he has failed miserably in showing the slightest understanding that he can set up a team to defend as a team and protect his defence and keeper from players being able to shoot unchallenged every single game.
Quite honestly it is staggering after 3 months.
Burton still managed to score twice. Bowyer got slated for being too negative, worrying too much about what the opposition does and not thinking about what kind of problems we can cause them with our own players.
I think I recall Southall saying to Bowyer in the press conference and Bowyer speaking afterwards that he could have a 5 year contract and he said no it was too long and agreed a 3 year contract.
I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.