Has Bowyer lost it?

Dave Rudd

AFKABartram said:

se9addick said:

shirty5 said:

He’s ok until the end of the season but if we are not promoted then it would not be surprising that there will be a change.

It’s a results business and anyone else not with a Charlton connection (eg: Robinson, Parkinson) would have had people screaming for them to be sacked a few games ago.

However he does have credits in the bank from the last 3 years but he looks and is making tired decisions now and has done so for weeks.

Fingers crossed that the form improves for him.

It just seems a bit silly to me to sit back and watch that happen.

Realistically (although not mathematically) it looks like the playoffs, never mind promotion, are less than likely. Therefore, if promotion is the thing which will determine whether or not he is our manager, then let’s make the call now and bring in someone who we trust better to build us over the summer into a team that can compete for promotion next season. You never know, that person might even be able to salvage something from this season. 

See, that’s the basis of my current position, but with a different stance. 

I think we have a strong chance of, from now, finishing the season strongly with our current manager in charge of a squad he knows and has shaped. Like we did two years ago successfully. I think there would be no guarantee or even increased likelihood that a new manager coming in and taking over someone else’s squad would have that success or deliver improvement in the next 3 months. Look how Powell didn’t when he first took over and that run in. 

That has nothing to do with loyalty to Bowyer as an individual but more my view that stability is currently more beneficial than upheaval and change. 

If that fails to meet the minimum target come end of season and it looks like there’s not much trust between owner and manager, they’ll be a change. If before that we say lose the next two games badly, they’ll most probably be an escalated change. And I think the vast majority of those currently saying ‘no change’ will be perfectly happy with that. 

But for now, and until I think it’s decisively proven to be otherwise, I think stability is our best stance. I understand why others have a differing view, and I too don’t think Bowyer has done a particularly good job this season, but I think this sacking campaign has been given far bigger online traction due to the Covid / lockdown situation we now find ourselves in. 

I’ve set out my view a couple of times this week so I’ll step back for now as I know how boring it is reading the same people posting the same things repeatedly. 

AFKA ... apart from the blind faith that we all, as Charlton supporters have, what is it that makes you think that "we will finish the season strongly"?  It's pure speculation.

And you can't then use this hypothetical success as a guarantee against the performance of any new manager.

What is true is that any new manager can get the foundations in place for next season.  And the sooner the better, as we are not going up this season.

Look at what you (we) are hoping for ...

A magical run ... 36-ish points from 20 games.  Overall success in the Play-off lottery.  Phew! 

I'd love you to be correct, but it will rival Paddy's 'Chase' appearance.

bolloxbolder

Fairly confident Bowyer will get the team to gain the 10 points necessary for us to be playing in this crap league next season.

agim

ShootersHillGuru said:

agim said:

I'm going to get slaughtered for this but look at Liverpool this season. Two centres backs are out. Injuries all over the place. Players playing out of position etc
We are obviously in no way comparable to Liverpool nor is LB comparable to Klopp BUT it just goes to show how a few things can effect a great team let alone a outfit like us. They're half the team they were last season and some of their players just aren't hitting form TAA and Robertson for example. 
Sometimes it just isn't your year. Sometimes it is hard to keep up with expectations and perform week in week out. 

Absolutely relevant but I didn’t notice Klopp playing Mohamed Salah at right back.

Jordan Henderson at centre back?

MuttleyCAFC

I think it is possible. If Bowyer simplifies things a bit, we have a good squad. if we get away with centre half injuries, Famewo and Deji will be decent enough until Inniss returns. 

If he does that, we could improve. And whilst automatic promotion looks extremely tough, verging on the impossible, surely coming 6th from a PPG of 10th is not that hard.

If I was changing tactics, one thing that would give me hope is that both Aneke and Stockley win more than their share of 50:50s. Millar is effective at running at defences with purpose  and Dj can bring something. I think it could help if we take a bit of emphasis away from the passing and go a bit more direct. It might be a bit anti football, but I think the tactic to beat us is anti football. It is just you are allowed to take an anti football approach. 

SE10Addick

I think the key thing for me this season would be showing potential for next season. Some fight, some sparks of creativity and some tactical nous. 
Been following Charlton for way too long now to expect a win all the time, but I do expect a team that fights. 
If we went up, great, if we don't, that's fine too because we need time to gel and get up to speed, but I would expect us to get better as the season progresses and as Bowyer gets more of the players he says he wants.

He got more of the players he wanted now, but I honestly don't think the players are the problem. I think that they should be good enough for a fighting team in League One.

I do think that handling of players is very concerning, some seasoned pro's losing their way and being treated badly. That doesn't show a manager who knows what he wants.

I'm not saying I want Bowyer out - but I do think a mid-sized club in London with TS in charge could attract someone more experienced who could change things around and ensure promotion next season.

I still think Bows could do with a more experienced mentor, either above him or maybe even as his number 2.

se9addick

I have to say - I like this stage of the week, we can have a reasoned discussion without the raw emotion generated by our most recent loss/win.

In the day or so after the match it boils down to “Bowyer must go now” (if we’ve lost) or “where are the boo boys now” (if we’ve won). 

Todds_right_hook

agim said:

I'm going to get slaughtered for this but look at Liverpool this season. Two centres backs are out. Injuries all over the place. Players playing out of position etc
We are obviously in no way comparable to Liverpool nor is LB comparable to Klopp BUT it just goes to show how a few things can effect a great team let alone a outfit like us. They're half the team they were last season and some of their players just aren't hitting form TAA and Robertson for example. 
Sometimes it just isn't your year. Sometimes it is hard to keep up with expectations and perform week in week out. 

Yes but although Liverpool are not as good this year, they are still 4th. Their manager (as far as I’m aware) isn’t throwing players under the bus or tinkering unless enforced. 

Cafc43v3r

reserves said:

Is it possible that Bowyer is mentally and physically exhausted, when was last time he had a proper break?

He’s been dealing with the stress of last season, the ownership hassle, being under an embargo and not being able to tell the fans. 

Totally agree.  In any other walk of like you would expect his employer/line manager to tell him to take a couple of weeks leave. 

Unfortunately rightly or wrongly (almost certainly wrongly IMO) football doesn't work like that.   

Cafc43v3r

agim said:

I'm going to get slaughtered for this but look at Liverpool this season. Two centres backs are out. Injuries all over the place. Players playing out of position etc
We are obviously in no way comparable to Liverpool nor is LB comparable to Klopp BUT it just goes to show how a few things can effect a great team let alone a outfit like us. They're half the team they were last season and some of their players just aren't hitting form TAA and Robertson for example. 
Sometimes it just isn't your year. Sometimes it is hard to keep up with expectations and perform week in week out. 

And they signed 2 center halves in January...... 

agim

Todds_right_hook said:

agim said:

I'm going to get slaughtered for this but look at Liverpool this season. Two centres backs are out. Injuries all over the place. Players playing out of position etc
We are obviously in no way comparable to Liverpool nor is LB comparable to Klopp BUT it just goes to show how a few things can effect a great team let alone a outfit like us. They're half the team they were last season and some of their players just aren't hitting form TAA and Robertson for example. 
Sometimes it just isn't your year. Sometimes it is hard to keep up with expectations and perform week in week out. 

Yes but although Liverpool are not as good this year, they are still 4th. Their manager (as far as I’m aware) isn’t throwing players under the bus or tinkering unless enforced. 

And like I said it's relative. 4th 10 points behind the leaders (if they win their game in hand) is a massive drop off from last season. Us 8th 8 points off of autos with more games played it less then what we all expected but my points is some seasons it just doesn't click and its not all the managers fault. 
LB has been poor with his critism I've always said that needs to be kept in house and on reflection and probably after a nudge from someone he is doing that.
The tinkering if I'm honest at times I think he makes rash moves. To me this is because we have so many players not hitting the expected levels and also sometimes he's game plans just don't work. It happens. 
After the performance on Tuesday we expect changes right? Will that be classed as tinkering or will that be classed as we played poorly changes need to be made?

MuttleyCAFC

The problem with the way we play is that teams try to stop us. It is hard to outskill teams that try to suffocate you in the areas you need to dominate. There is more than one way to skin a cat though. 

ShootersHillGuru

To be honest our season has hit the point where it’s shit or bust. We should see Smith and DJ starting along with Millar and Stockley. No more rotation or fancying about with he’s not quite ready old bollox. Famewo has to start too. We’re shipping two goals a game. Get him back in. I don’t want him to have a setback but let’s get him in and playing. Without him playing the seasons over anyway. Go for the win every game. Let the opposition worry about stopping us not the other way around which is what seems to me has become Bowyers ethos. Attack, attack, attack. 

Todds_right_hook

agim said:

Todds_right_hook said:

agim said:

I'm going to get slaughtered for this but look at Liverpool this season. Two centres backs are out. Injuries all over the place. Players playing out of position etc
We are obviously in no way comparable to Liverpool nor is LB comparable to Klopp BUT it just goes to show how a few things can effect a great team let alone a outfit like us. They're half the team they were last season and some of their players just aren't hitting form TAA and Robertson for example. 
Sometimes it just isn't your year. Sometimes it is hard to keep up with expectations and perform week in week out. 

Yes but although Liverpool are not as good this year, they are still 4th. Their manager (as far as I’m aware) isn’t throwing players under the bus or tinkering unless enforced. 

And like I said it's relative. 4th 10 points behind the leaders (if they win their game in hand) is a massive drop off from last season. Us 8th 8 points off of autos with more games played it less then what we all expected but my points is some seasons it just doesn't click and its not all the managers fault. 
LB has been poor with his critism I've always said that needs to be kept in house and on reflection and probably after a nudge from someone he is doing that.
The tinkering if I'm honest at times I think he makes rash moves. To me this is because we have so many players not hitting the expected levels and also sometimes he's game plans just don't work. It happens. 
After the performance on Tuesday we expect changes right? Will that be classed as tinkering or will that be classed as we played poorly changes need to be made?

I would expect Millar to come in, he should have started on Tuesday. Aneke may start, again, as our top scorer, he should have played on Tuesday.

the issue with why players like Matthews aren’t as good or consistent as last year is because they are in and out of the team, played out of position etc.

when we played Accrington, sky showed the stat on the number of changes. At that point, we were 10 higher than second.

a settled team and formation is what we need. 

tangoflash

Anyone who thinks Bows can get us into the play-offs this season needs their head knocking. 2 years ago we had a much stronger squad and we only just about limped over the finish line that time. I've never got the whole LB loyalty thing. Yes, he started his playing career here, but that shouldn't influence our judgements on him as a manager. His tactical decisions are poor, as is his man management and his team selection is baffling. Whenever we lose, we look like we're going to lose, yet when we win it's rarely a comfortable or convincing. Time to move on.....................

Wheresmeticket

se9addick said:

I have to say - I like this stage of the week, we can have a reasoned discussion without the raw emotion generated by our most recent loss/win.

In the day or so after the match it boils down to “Bowyer must go now” (if we’ve lost) or “where are the boo boys now” (if we’ve won). 

I'm definitely going for "where are the bowyer boo boys going now" in either of those scenarios.

Billericaydickie

Being a football manager is a cut-throat result driven occupation. One season you are a hero, and a short time later you are the villain.

The success of football manager’s is often down to luck. You might have been a top international footballer being managed by the best manager’s in the world, but that doesn’t guarantee success when the top players become manager’s themselves.

I think that luck has had a big effect on Lee Bowyer managerial career so far. He took over at Charlton because he just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The club was in turmoil on and off the field when Lee became manager and the fans and players all got fully behind him. 

The early signs were good. It helped that he inherited (by League 1 standards) a reasonably strong squad. Players like Patrick Bauer and Nabby Sarr were on long contracts.

In the summer of 2018 he further strengthened the squad. He signed Lyle Taylor, and along with some excellent loan signings Lee had a squad that could easily challenge for promotion. The rest is history. That fantastic day at Wembley will live with us all for the rest of our lives.

Fast forward to the present. We are once again back again in League 1. 

On paper Lee once again has at his disposal a very strong squad, but this time around something is very wrong.  

The results are dire, and there appears to be disharmony in the changing room. Every single game the same mistakes are made with tactics and team selection.

As I said at the start Football management is a cut-throat result driven occupation. 

Sadly, Lee doesn’t appear to have the knowledge or the nous to turn things around. I think that the rot has set in, and already it appears that promotion this season is beyond us. 

I think that we should now plan for season 2021/22. And if that includes a new manager so be it.

Wheresmeticket

Sitting in my office repeating "Bowyer boo boys" to myself now.  I can't stop.

Six-a-bag-of-nuts

tangoflash said:

Anyone who thinks Bows can get us into the play-offs this season needs their head knocking. 2 years ago we had a much stronger squad and we only just about limped over the finish line that time. I've never got the whole LB loyalty thing. Yes, he started his playing career here, but that shouldn't influence our judgements on him as a manager. His tactical decisions are poor, as is his man management and his team selection is baffling. Whenever we lose, we look like we're going to lose, yet when we win it's rarely a comfortable or convincing. Time to move on.....................

The thing that worries me most of all is that I am beginning to entertain the possibility that you are right 
I want to see consistent team selection, best available players, playing with belief and purpose, and an obvious game plan.
You have your squad Bows - it's now or never mate

ShootersHillGuru

I think it might come down in the end to what TS wants to see his team playing and we know that’s on the front foot whenever possible. Been quite a while since we have seen LB adopt that as a routine strategy. It’s been negative and poorly organised. 

Todds_right_hook

tangoflash said:

Anyone who thinks Bows can get us into the play-offs this season needs their head knocking. 2 years ago we had a much stronger squad and we only just about limped over the finish line that time. I've never got the whole LB loyalty thing. Yes, he started his playing career here, but that shouldn't influence our judgements on him as a manager. His tactical decisions are poor, as is his man management and his team selection is baffling. Whenever we lose, we look like we're going to lose, yet when we win it's rarely a comfortable or convincing. Time to move on.....................

How did we just limp over the line? We finished 16 points clear of 7th. That’s 5 wins and a drawer.

we were one win away from Barnsley and two wins from Luton. When considering we couldn’t field a full subs bench during the early stages of the season, that was some achievement 

Cafc43v3r

Todds_right_hook said:

tangoflash said:

Anyone who thinks Bows can get us into the play-offs this season needs their head knocking. 2 years ago we had a much stronger squad and we only just about limped over the finish line that time. I've never got the whole LB loyalty thing. Yes, he started his playing career here, but that shouldn't influence our judgements on him as a manager. His tactical decisions are poor, as is his man management and his team selection is baffling. Whenever we lose, we look like we're going to lose, yet when we win it's rarely a comfortable or convincing. Time to move on.....................

How did we just limp over the line? We finished 16 points clear of 7th. That’s 5 wins and a drawer.

we were one win away from Barnsley and two wins from Luton. When considering we couldn’t field a full subs bench during the early stages of the season, that was some achievement 

A penalty shoot out and a 94th minute winner are not convincing margins of victory. 

MrLargo

Blimey, so we "limped over the line" against Sunderland in '98 as well then, did we? Never heard anyone say that before.

Chris_from_Sidcup

Not that it really matters but we certainly limped over the line in the Doncaster second leg, we sat back and sat back and waited for them to inevitably equalise. Which they did. 

Personally felt we were lucky that Pratley got us back level on aggregate so quickly or we'd have been done for.

peterreeves

Not sure who said this but someone reckoned LB has been targeted by TS to finish top six.

I actually think they are spot on as other clubs would have got rid by now. 

Although sadly I'm in the LB 'to go' camp it's clear that we have to grin and bear it now to the end of the season. 

I'd love to see the LB that two seasons ago said we are going to win every game and get in the playoffs...

Unfortunately the LB of today is more the tinkerman and I think you'd need to be on some serious drugs to think we are a top six finisher.

Hope I'm wrong but I've decided to now stop saying LB should go and write the season off and see where we finish and what TS does in the close season. 

killerandflash

One area which has seen a decline is Bowyer oft mentioned claim that he improves players, something which has helped us get good young loan players. Going back a year or two you can reel off an impressive list of players who've improved under his guidance, Aribo, Grant, Taylor, Cullen, Bielik, Gallagher etc

This season the scorecard is far worse. 

Maatsen - no better than when he joined us, and arguably worse
Smyth - no improvement
Levitt - probably went backwards with us

And amongst the experienced players, the likes of Gilbey, Matthews, Williams, Watson, Maddison have all disappointed really

aliwibble

Wheresmeticket? said:

Could somebody produce a bite size "Has Bowyer lost it" thread?

You volunteering?

ShootersHillGuru

Well we’re certainly limping now.

JohnnyH2

Todds_right_hook said:

tangoflash said:

Anyone who thinks Bows can get us into the play-offs this season needs their head knocking. 2 years ago we had a much stronger squad and we only just about limped over the finish line that time. I've never got the whole LB loyalty thing. Yes, he started his playing career here, but that shouldn't influence our judgements on him as a manager. His tactical decisions are poor, as is his man management and his team selection is baffling. Whenever we lose, we look like we're going to lose, yet when we win it's rarely a comfortable or convincing. Time to move on.....................

How did we just limp over the line? We finished 16 points clear of 7th. That’s 5 wins and a drawer.

we were one win away from Barnsley and two wins from Luton. When considering we couldn’t field a full subs bench during the early stages of the season, that was some achievement 

I get the anti Bowyer vibe that we now have, but it really does get bad when some are 're-writing what he has achieved in the past.

So we can now add limping over the line in 18/19, along with others that have been stated by some such as we had the strongest squad that season and anything other than promotion would have been a failure.

Not as good as the claim I saw on Twitter recently that when he got us in the play offs the season before, that would have happened had Robinson stayed with us!

stoneroses19

Todds_right_hook said:

tangoflash said:

Anyone who thinks Bows can get us into the play-offs this season needs their head knocking. 2 years ago we had a much stronger squad and we only just about limped over the finish line that time. I've never got the whole LB loyalty thing. Yes, he started his playing career here, but that shouldn't influence our judgements on him as a manager. His tactical decisions are poor, as is his man management and his team selection is baffling. Whenever we lose, we look like we're going to lose, yet when we win it's rarely a comfortable or convincing. Time to move on.....................

How did we just limp over the line? We finished 16 points clear of 7th. That’s 5 wins and a drawer.

we were one win away from Barnsley and two wins from Luton. When considering we couldn’t field a full subs bench during the early stages of the season, that was some achievement 

Thanks for saying this. A well put - with facts - reply. 

I understand people are frustrated with Bowyer at the moment, but trying to rewrite history from 2 years ago to prove a point he’s not good enough manager is ridiculous. 

stoneroses19

MrLargo said:

Blimey, so we "limped over the line" against Sunderland in '98 as well then, did we? Never heard anyone say that before.

That was Bowyers fault too. We’d have been champions if it wasn’t for him 😉