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Charlton Women to rebrand as "Charlton Ladies" - turned down by FA (p28)
Comments
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The Chambers Dictionary can help to resolve our collective angst.
It would appear that 'lady' is a subset of 'woman' and is defined (among other things) as a 'woman with refined manners and instincts'.
A woman, of course, is more generally 'an adult female of the human race'.
So, there you have it ... all ladies are women, but only some women are ladies.*
All we need now is some kind of test of refinement to establish what our players are.
*Woke rules notwithstanding3 -
Let the team decide, that's the simple answer, and if they prefer 'women ' the jobs done.2
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What if next season the latest bunch of players to join prefer the term ladies ?4
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Just call them Charlton athletic football club or isn't that allowed.0
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The plan is to CHANGE the name of the team against the wishes of the current players. The clue is in the word CHANGE.MrOneLung said:What if next season the latest bunch of players to join prefer the term ladies ?
No one is advocating delegating the naming of the team on an annual basis to whoever is in the team.
And let me reassure you that a group of professional young women are not going to prefer to be called Ladies in this context.1 -
No one 'prefers' the term ladies. The other bunch of players just weren't bothered about the change. I'm sure if they had to vote they'd have just kept it the same too.MrOneLung said:What if next season the latest bunch of players to join prefer the term ladies ?
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Can't see how the FA registered name can be changed mid season.0
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Well thanks for your reassurancePico said:
The plan is to CHANGE the name of the team against the wishes of the current players. The clue is in the word CHANGE.MrOneLung said:What if next season the latest bunch of players to join prefer the term ladies ?
No one is advocating delegating the naming of the team on an annual basis to whoever is in the team.
And let me reassure you that a group of professional young women are not going to prefer to be called Ladies in this context.1 -
I long ago determined that anyone who refers to women as “females” is either a raging misogynist and/or a serial killer.aliwibble said:Hate to tell you this @jimmymelrose, but presence or absence of a penis isn't considered definitive these days by many official bodies including the IOC - I've not checked FIFA or the FA. But if people want to get into all that it's probably best to avoid derailing this thread, and take it over to that one over on the House of Commoners:Personally I don't mind "lady" in certain contexts, as I appreciate it often comes from a place where people are trying to be polite and respectful. The problem comes where it's tied in explicitly or historically to restrictive behavioural expectations ie "being ladylike", which will generally send me into "well, fuck that shit" mode.* Given that women and girls playing football were often considered not to be ladylike for doing so, I can see why the Women's team don't appreciate being rebranded as the Ladies team instead.*Although nowhere near as much as calling women "females" (noun not adjective) - we're not livestock, and it makes you sound like you're a Ferengi from one of the Star Trek spin-offs.1 -
'but presence or absence of a penis isn't considered definitive these days by many official bodies including the IOC'
@aliwibble
I'm not going onto a political thread to debate this anymore than I would do so for a 'flat-earther'
My wife and I have had a good laugh over this this lunchtime.0 - Sponsored links:
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EastStand said:
I long ago determined that anyone who refers to women as “females” is either a raging misogynist and/or a serial killer.aliwibble said:Hate to tell you this @jimmymelrose, but presence or absence of a penis isn't considered definitive these days by many official bodies including the IOC - I've not checked FIFA or the FA. But if people want to get into all that it's probably best to avoid derailing this thread, and take it over to that one over on the House of Commoners:Personally I don't mind "lady" in certain contexts, as I appreciate it often comes from a place where people are trying to be polite and respectful. The problem comes where it's tied in explicitly or historically to restrictive behavioural expectations ie "being ladylike", which will generally send me into "well, fuck that shit" mode.* Given that women and girls playing football were often considered not to be ladylike for doing so, I can see why the Women's team don't appreciate being rebranded as the Ladies team instead.*Although nowhere near as much as calling women "females" (noun not adjective) - we're not livestock, and it makes you sound like you're a Ferengi from one of the Star Trek spin-offs.
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My organisation changed it's name about 8 years ago. I was not consulted and neither would I expect to be. The teams i work in are always changing name. If i dont like it I can vote with my feet.
I asked my wife if she prefers to be referred to as a lady or a woman. She said lady.
Personally I'd be disappointed to see lady disappear from our vocabulary. As a middle aged man, I've always known it to be a polite word.
That said..
As we strive for equality and as others have said why do they need a suffix at all. Can't they all just be employees of Charlton Athletic Football Club. Then, whether its women, ladies, men, gentlemen, boys or girls teams that we are discussing, we can all just add the descriptor that we feel most comfortable with.
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Home game tomorrow, those not happy will be at the Oakwood making their feelings clear in large numbers, could be the turning point for the womans team with such a big crowd there for them2
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Dammit! 🤣SporadicAddick said:
Eats, shoots and leaves.Leroy Ambrose said:
It's really not, though is it? 🙄WishIdStayedinthePub said:Only a matter of time before it's Charlton Athletic People With Cervixes.1 -
Ladies in Red, perhaps?RodneyCharltonTrotta said:Ladies scans better than women for the next song lolz
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Away game at Rochester tomorrow but no reason why they can’t crack on with itJohnnyH2 said:Home game tomorrow, those not happy will be at the Oakwood making their feelings clear in large numbers, could be the turning point for the womans team with such a big crowd there for them2 -
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Kips said:My organisation changed it's name about 8 years ago. I was not consulted and neither would I expect to be. The teams i work in are always changing name. If i dont like it I can vote with my feet.
I asked my wife if she prefers to be referred to as a lady or a woman. She said lady.
Personally I'd be disappointed to see lady disappear from our vocabulary. As a middle aged man, I've always known it to be a polite word.
That said..
As we strive for equality and as others have said why do they need a suffix at all. Can't they all just be employees of Charlton Athletic Football Club. Then, whether its women, ladies, men, gentlemen, boys or girls teams that we are discussing, we can all just add the descriptor that we feel most comfortable with.None of that is relevant in any way, as far as I can see.Is anyone proposing that ‘lady’ should disappear from our vocabulary? No.Is it relevant to the women’s team’s choice of nomenclature that your wife prefers to be called ‘lady’? No.Is anybody claiming ‘lady’ isn’t a polite word? No.
Is it fair to expect the women’s team to resign if they don’t like the name change, because your work organisation changed its name without asking you? No.The question is, why do you think you understand the issue better than the women’s team who are against the change?6 -
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Today's cup game against Gillingham Women will be played at the Rochester United ground in Strood (just off the A2) ME2 3TU. K.O. 1pm.0
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This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.
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And there you have it - it is all about context.TellyTubby said:
This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.
As far as I know the women's team are not "upset by the use of lady". They just prefer in their professional lives to be referred to as a women's team in line with the league they play in and women's football all over the world.
And I am sure that if a woman in Devon did ask you not to use the term maid to her that you would respect that.
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No one is upset by the use of the word ‘lady’ per se.TellyTubby said:
This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.It’s purely in relation to woman’s football. If you read the thread there are plenty of posts explaining that, and explaining why the women’s team don’t want their name to change. The women’s team aren’t against you or others using the word lady in other contexts.3 -
It has been stated on this thread that the word lady is outdated, classist and sexist.JamesSeed said:
No one is upset by the use of the word ‘lady’ per se.TellyTubby said:
This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.It’s purely in relation to woman’s football. If you read the thread there are plenty of posts explaining that, and explaining why the women’s team don’t want their name to change. The women’s team aren’t against you or others using the word lady in other contexts.0 -
IN RELATION TO THE WOMENS TEAM. Not in general, not that it can never be used. But in the context of the team who have specifically said they don't want the change, to enforce it would 100% be sexist.ME14addick said:
It has been stated on this thread that the word lady is outdated, classist and sexist.JamesSeed said:
No one is upset by the use of the word ‘lady’ per se.TellyTubby said:
This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.It’s purely in relation to woman’s football. If you read the thread there are plenty of posts explaining that, and explaining why the women’s team don’t want their name to change. The women’s team aren’t against you or others using the word lady in other contexts.4 -
Absolutely.Pico said:
And there you have it - it is all about context.TellyTubby said:
This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.
As far as I know the women's team are not "upset by the use of lady". They just prefer in their professional lives to be referred to as a women's team in line with the league they play in and women's football all over the world.
And I am sure that if a woman in Devon did ask you not to use the term maid to her that you would respect that.
I don't have strong views either way, hence I would go with the 'women' tag, just find the reasons for the objections difficult to understand.0 -
In the context of professional women playing football.ME14addick said:
It has been stated on this thread that the word lady is outdated, classist and sexist.JamesSeed said:
No one is upset by the use of the word ‘lady’ per se.TellyTubby said:
This pretty much sums up where I am am and Mrs TT too.AFKABartram said:The issue imo is TS apparently seeking to steamroll unnecessary change in the face of opposition, but the whole everyday terminology thing is a bit of a minefield to me. I’m not surprised some people are confused.
I know language evolves, but it is not always easy to keep up with terminology shifts as a result of empowerment, and this definitely feels one of those (example, I’ve learnt today that some women don’t like their sex adjective form being referred to as ‘females’ as that would give the assumption they had been born female which isn’t always the case) .
Some blokes see referring to women (plural) as ladies is courteous and respectful. The right terminology when approaching multiple people (I’d say for example ‘excuse me ladies to a group of women as I would say excuse me gents / fellas to a group of men).Some people have known all their lives the women version of sports clubs being referred as the ladies section. My golf club seem proud of their ladies section and all comms emanating from themselves to their members refers to themselves as ladies.Some women like being referred to as ladies as it feels they are being treated with respect. Others seem to find it patronising, belittling and that chivalry is archaic and should get in the sea. Most I suspect don’t really give a shit one way or another.
I’m a dinosaur so probably completely out of step with this, but just thought I’d offer an honest view. I wouldn’t be surprised if TS just doesn’t get this, particularly if he has a partner that feels the language use of ladies is complementary and not belittling or condescending.As said in previous post, not reading the mood in the room and actively looking to ignore it is more the issue to me
I don't like the thought of intentionally offending people but find it hard to keep up with ever changing perceptions of previously polite and respectful words.
For me it's a non story but can't see why TS didn't consult or would want to push ahead with it given the opposition.
I wonder what people who are upset by the use of 'lady' would think of the commonly used word 'maid' in North Devon? I've never heard it used in a way intended to offend and I've never known anyone find offence when referred to in this way.It’s purely in relation to woman’s football. If you read the thread there are plenty of posts explaining that, and explaining why the women’s team don’t want their name to change. The women’s team aren’t against you or others using the word lady in other contexts.5 -
I guess changing the name is a 'faux pas' However, it gives some media exposure to the Charlton Women's team like getting a write up in the DT. The standard of women's football is piss poor, I'd personally rather go and watch the Youth Team. I guess if you're appealing to a group of people that are all about Women's football then you may want to be 'politically correct' when naming the side.0
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if you're appealing to a group of people that are all about Women's football then you may want to be 'politically correct' when naming the side.
Let me try to rephrase that so that it comes across a little less dismissively:
if you're appealing to a group of people that are all about Women's football then you may want to respect their views on how they want to be referred to
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