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Sandgaard ownership discussion 2022-3 onwards (Meeting with CAST p138)

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  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,234
    I can't see TS power sharing with anyone, but he can't afford the losses being incurred alone, so he must be contemplating a sale.

    Who will buy? Someone considerably richer than him who's able to fund, not just running the Club in L1, but assembling a squad of promotion contending ability.

    Dealing with RD doesn't need to be an obstacle to the sale as it was before though and wouldn't be an immediate problem. The lease passes to the new owner on sale and RD wouldn't be involved, although that suits him anyway as he's happy receiving his rent money whilst his assets appreciate in value over time, thus reducing the value he has to ultimately write off.

    He might even sell the assets now if made an offer exceeding what running Charlton cost him, but as that's unlikely, he'll probably have to wait until we reach the Premier League before that happens.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    DamoNorthStand said:
    My views have not changed from what I was saying 6-12 months ago. I was slated by many for all of the below statement - I would guess half of it will now be accepted:

    1) TS is a bit of a Wally running a football club. He’s not an idiot. He’s built a successful business in another field - but he doesn’t and never did know how to run a professional sports team. He was always going to be found out - and has indeed shown to be out of his depth. No conspiracy, no Roland link. He doesn’t know what he was doing and coupled with the apparent lack of funds and it’s the most dangerous situation we could have.

    The above is why we are sinking on the pitch and that will ultimately dictate our commercial success off it

    2) Roland wasn’t a Wally. Roland was a seemingly (I never met him) very unpleasant person. But I haven’t changed my view - he was a nasty piece of work who knew more about running a football club.

    That knowledge translated into on field performance. Squad and recruitment wise (and standard of football) was head and shoulders clear of where we are now.

    Neither option was perfect - but I would hazard a guess that if RD was still here and had maintained his distance from all of us to just support the team - we would have been better off than we are now.

    Lets just hope option 3 transpires.

    No Roland. No TS. New start.


    I think it is understandable that Sandgaard is ignorant when it comes to football but the issue is surely that he seems to think he knows it all. In terms of Duchatelet, he made many mistakes. He bought us to prove a theory that didn't work, not just for us but other clubs, and we were well placed to move forwards with a bit of support and less interference. Both knew better than to support those that knew what they were doing to get on with it. They had to interfere with flawed plans. Their flawed plans.
    There was nothing wrong with Roland's plan.  The problem was the people he got to execute it.
  • Cardinal Sin
    Cardinal Sin Posts: 5,233
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    When the academy is probably the only thing within the club that will make him money (or rather reduce his losses), it's absolutely baffling why he'd choose to cut funding.

    This might very easily result in promising 13/14/15 year olds leaving for other clubs.
    I suspect he's heading out the door as soon as possible, so longer term funding won't be his problem. This just looks like his 'break even' excuse to slash costs and save him money now.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,766
    To1SCP said:
    Covered End said:
    Is it just me or are the majority moaning about the attendances the ones that aren't attending?
    i don’t blame him for wanting out, if he does. 
    All the crap he gets on here, i’m surprised he’s still around.
    How many more owners are we going to hound out?
    I wonder why he gets "all the crap on here"?
    Poor Tommy.
  • To1SCP
    To1SCP Posts: 52
    Im not saying he’s doing a good job, just why would anyone either now or in the future put themselves through this.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,766
    To1SCP said:
    Im not saying he’s doing a good job, just why would anyone either now or in the future put themselves through this.
    If you do a job badly then you invite criticism. He is doing his job of an owner really badly and any negativity directed towards him is totally justified.
  • carly burn
    carly burn Posts: 19,459
    To1SCP said:
    Im not saying he’s doing a good job, just why would anyone either now or in the future put themselves through this.
     Greed.
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  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,234
    RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
    To1SCP said:
    Covered End said:
    Is it just me or are the majority moaning about the attendances the ones that aren't attending?
    i don’t blame him for wanting out, if he does. 
    All the crap he gets on here, i’m surprised he’s still around.
    How many more owners are we going to hound out?

    "Hound out"?!

    A perceived mix of incompetence, stubbornness, arrogance and complete inexperience leading to abject failure and loss of millions is what will see this ownership departing. 

    Not criticism on Charlton life or twitter.

    Bar the odd wally crossing the line on twitter with abuse the bloke has been met with messianic fervour since day one and had his ego trip stunts lapped up in the main and any of us daring to question it put firmly in our place by his many plaudits.

    He'll leave Charlton because his misjudgement, miscalculation, misspending and fundamently flawed single minded approach that it's "easy" to run a club successfully and a gargantuan gulf between stated objectives and delivered reality is now there for all to see and is eroding his finances at a rate of knots.

    Not because he's been hounded out by a few of us spotty herberts on the Internet.
    Not so long ago, we all got to read about the effect personal abuse can have on an individual and his family when Paul Scally left Gillingham.

    I'm not disagreeing with your summation, but you don't know how TS and family cope with the abuse they get now and it shouldn't be underestimated. From what we know of him, he appears thick skinned, but I might have thought the same of Scally.
  • The Red Robin
    The Red Robin Posts: 26,126
    JamesSeed said:
    Would this all be happening if we were top two or three?
    Isn’t that the point? We’re never going to be top two or three under Sandgaard. 
  • CAFCTrev
    CAFCTrev Posts: 5,977
    RonnieMoore said:
    To1SCP said:
    Covered End said:
    Is it just me or are the majority moaning about the attendances the ones that aren't attending?
    i don’t blame him for wanting out, if he does. 
    All the crap he gets on here, i’m surprised he’s still around.
    How many more owners are we going to hound out?
    who do you want someone like TS who running it like a business which will mean the club will still be a club in 10 years time might not spectacular but there will be good times and bad times or do you want someone who comes in like a bull in a China shop might buy success for 12 months but then puts the club whole existence in doubt because they run out of money …
    I think there's a middle ground mate...
  • Airman Brown
    Airman Brown Posts: 15,734
    Scoham said:
    Airman Brown said:
    Covered End said:k
    robroy said:
    All this talk of TS spending £20million is laughable, he paid £1million and we had £400k in the bank. He took a loan of £300k. These are only the things we now know about.

    what else has gone on? 

    We are in serious trouble by the sounds of things 
    Robroy the accounts were out last week.
    We saw them, presumably you did not.
    They are what we know about. They are fact.
    TS has loaned I think it was £16M in 2 years and is probably in for about £20M now (at a guess).
    This why it wouldn't be a massive surprise if ideally he wanted £25M because he'll have possibly lent that amount by the time a sale is concluded (don't believe he'll get anywhere near that).

    That figure of £16m is current to the end of September. Only £12m of it had been put into the club six months ago. £1.15m of it was also spent on acquiring the club, which had £400k in its coffers. TS used a figure of £20m recently - there’s no other evidence for it. It might represent a projection to the end of the season, although we know he made £2m in transfer profit over the summer.

    There are people willing to help him walk away but he isn’t getting £25m, in my opinion. He can choose to carry on losing more money if he prefers that. He’s never going to succeed.
    Do you believe reports he wants £25m are accurate?
    No idea.
  • Airman Brown
    Airman Brown Posts: 15,734
    se9addick said:
    Airman Brown said:
    Covered End said:k
    robroy said:
    All this talk of TS spending £20million is laughable, he paid £1million and we had £400k in the bank. He took a loan of £300k. These are only the things we now know about.

    what else has gone on? 

    We are in serious trouble by the sounds of things 
    Robroy the accounts were out last week.
    We saw them, presumably you did not.
    They are what we know about. They are fact.
    TS has loaned I think it was £16M in 2 years and is probably in for about £20M now (at a guess).
    This why it wouldn't be a massive surprise if ideally he wanted £25M because he'll have possibly lent that amount by the time a sale is concluded (don't believe he'll get anywhere near that).

    That figure of £16m is current to the end of September. Only £12m of it had been put into the club six months ago. £1.15m of it was also spent on acquiring the club, which had £400k in its coffers. TS used a figure of £20m recently - there’s no other evidence for it. It might represent a projection to the end of the season, although we know he made £2m in transfer profit over the summer.

    There are people willing to help him walk away but he isn’t getting £25m, in my opinion. He can choose to carry on losing more money if he prefers that. He’s never going to succeed.
    But Sandgaard must still be putting serious money in as the club runs at a considerable loss? Those losses are likely higher due to his own ill-convinced ideas, particularly around ticketing, but people saying he hasn’t put any money in cannot be accurate. I would guess that the ridiculous cuts to things like the Academy budget are him trying to reduce outgoings as much as he possibly can to limit how much he needs to put in, but I would guess it’s still a fair whack each month. 
    It’s clear he’s put money in and will have to put in more if he remains owner. 
  • The Red Robin
    The Red Robin Posts: 26,126
    What is any buyer actually getting for £25m from Sandgaard?! Absolutely sod all. Anything of value is owned by Roland. 
  • Airman Brown
    Airman Brown Posts: 15,734
    Weegie Addick said:
    Roland had a plan until the rules on financial fair play changed.
    Sandgaard had a plan until he failed to get Academy Cat 1.

    That is the essence imo. 
    That’s giving both of them too much credit, in my view. Getting category one would not change the Sandgaard story significantly - he thought he could put a fixed sum of money in the table and transform the club with his business acumen.
  • RonnieMoore
    RonnieMoore Posts: 4,496
    look at the mess Rugby in now .. how many league one and two sides are on the brink .. restructuring going on across all companies in this present climate .. football would be stupid to think they are different 
  • RodneyCharltonTrotta
    RodneyCharltonTrotta Posts: 14,827
    edited October 2022
    swordfish said:
    RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
    To1SCP said:
    Covered End said:
    Is it just me or are the majority moaning about the attendances the ones that aren't attending?
    i don’t blame him for wanting out, if he does. 
    All the crap he gets on here, i’m surprised he’s still around.
    How many more owners are we going to hound out?

    "Hound out"?!

    A perceived mix of incompetence, stubbornness, arrogance and complete inexperience leading to abject failure and loss of millions is what will see this ownership departing. 

    Not criticism on Charlton life or twitter.

    Bar the odd wally crossing the line on twitter with abuse the bloke has been met with messianic fervour since day one and had his ego trip stunts lapped up in the main and any of us daring to question it put firmly in our place by his many plaudits.

    He'll leave Charlton because his misjudgement, miscalculation, misspending and fundamently flawed single minded approach that it's "easy" to run a club successfully and a gargantuan gulf between stated objectives and delivered reality is now there for all to see and is eroding his finances at a rate of knots.

    Not because he's been hounded out by a few of us spotty herberts on the Internet.
    Not so long ago, we all got to read about the effect personal abuse can have on an individual and his family when Paul Scally left Gillingham.

    I'm not disagreeing with your summation, but you don't know how TS and family cope with the abuse they get now and it shouldn't be underestimated. From what we know of him, he appears thick skinned, but I might have thought the same of Scally.


    I predicted a year ago on here the social media abuse angle will be utilised as a driver for departure to cover up the nigh on catastrophic ownership.

    I find social media abuse cowardly particularly when done anonymously and unacceptable and I do agree that no matter who you are whether it be a celebrity, a millionaire or joe normal it can take it's toil so I don't disregard that at all.

    But I don't agree that it is the sole/ material driver that has seen the owner set the exit plan in motion (as is seemingly unfolding) and if CAFC fans start finger pointing and blaming each other for hounding him out when the vast majority has been civil and well warranted criticism of what his stewardship has to date done to the club on and off the pitch then that's completely short sighted.
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  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,234
    The Red Robin said:
    What is any buyer actually getting for £25m from Sandgaard?! Absolutely sod all. Anything of value is owned by Roland. 
    They may not be tearing up any trees, but that's a bit harsh on the players, to write off any value in them.
  • CL_Phantom
    CL_Phantom Posts: 5,513
    "I'm an arrogant, stubborn, highly successful business man. I know what I'm doing and how to do it. The cream always rises to the top. Ruthlesssssss. Dollar dollar bill y'all"

    "Addickdave11111111111001111 called you a bellend on Facebook boss"

    "That's it, SELL UP" 
  • IT_Andy
    IT_Andy Posts: 477
    RonnieMoore said:
    look at the mess Rugby in now .. how many league one and two sides are on the brink .. restructuring going on across all companies in this present climate .. football would be stupid to think they are different 
    Very true about rugby and they have a strict budgets.  Saracens were caught out and relegated because of it. I still don't understand how other league one clubs finance losses over 6 million per year. 
  • swordfish
    swordfish Posts: 4,234
    RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
    swordfish said:
    RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
    To1SCP said:
    Covered End said:
    Is it just me or are the majority moaning about the attendances the ones that aren't attending?
    i don’t blame him for wanting out, if he does. 
    All the crap he gets on here, i’m surprised he’s still around.
    How many more owners are we going to hound out?

    "Hound out"?!

    A perceived mix of incompetence, stubbornness, arrogance and complete inexperience leading to abject failure and loss of millions is what will see this ownership departing. 

    Not criticism on Charlton life or twitter.

    Bar the odd wally crossing the line on twitter with abuse the bloke has been met with messianic fervour since day one and had his ego trip stunts lapped up in the main and any of us daring to question it put firmly in our place by his many plaudits.

    He'll leave Charlton because his misjudgement, miscalculation, misspending and fundamently flawed single minded approach that it's "easy" to run a club successfully and a gargantuan gulf between stated objectives and delivered reality is now there for all to see and is eroding his finances at a rate of knots.

    Not because he's been hounded out by a few of us spotty herberts on the Internet.
    Not so long ago, we all got to read about the effect personal abuse can have on an individual and his family when Paul Scally left Gillingham.

    I'm not disagreeing with your summation, but you don't know how TS and family cope with the abuse they get now and it shouldn't be underestimated. From what we know of him, he appears thick skinned, but I might have thought the same of Scally.


    I predicted a year ago on here the social media abuse angle will be utilised as a driver for departure to cover up the nigh on catastrophic ownership.

    I find social media abuse cowardly particularly when done anonymously and unacceptable and I do agree that no matter who you are whether it be a celebrity, a millionaire or joe normal it can take it's toil so I don't disregard that at all.

    But I don't agree that it is the sole/ material driver that has seen the owner set the exit plan in motion (as is seemingly unfolding) and if CAFC fans start finger pointing and blaming each other for hounding him out when the vast majority has been civil and we'll warranted criticism of what his stewardship has to date done to the club on and off the pitch then that's completely short sighted.
    Just for the record, I do agree with you and don't think it's a significant factor here (never have done), the ones you listed being far more pertinent, although he did take himself off twitter. 
  • Athletico Charlton
    Athletico Charlton Posts: 14,273
    I said it at the time and have repeated it plenty.  When TS bought us he was interviewed saying promotion that year was a bonus, but promotion the following year was the expectation.  It was and remains my strong belief he never even considered a third year in L1.  As Airman says, he had a set amount of money put aside for his project and thought (and said) it would be easy.

    He was wrong. It was clear when he bought us he didn't have the unlimited wealth to keep us going for a long period of time.

    He talked about how he liked taking high risks and saw it as a badge of honour that his diligence was not as thorough as others.

    He was badly mistaken and compounded it by making daft decisions from the very start (£300K on Schwartz the start).

    Now his Charlton pot is empty and he is slashing and burning and I would imagine trying to find a way out.  The question is can he hold on to Jan and then sell Leaburn to keep it all going to the end of the season or until someone else comes along.

    He is not as calculating as RD was/is and RD is still the reason we remain a basket case but TS has managed to take us even further backwards than we were in RDs time.
  • AFKABartram
    AFKABartram Posts: 57,825
    edited October 2022
    clive said:
    https://www.castrust.org/2022/10/cast-writes-to-thomas-sandgaard-with-concerns/
    @castrust it’s very important that amongst the noise formal avenues are maintained and pursued, with dialogue recorded and reported.

    Amongst the non-football operations question can you please ascertain the position of Raelynn Maloney, who it appeared for months to everyone  was pretty much running the day to day aspects. What is the impact of it being highlighted she has no work permit and who is replacing the workload she was previously carrying out?

    Can you also stress that it is not normal for so many people to be activity seeking to leave an organisation as we have seen over the last 12 months along with enforced sackings. Morale must be rock bottom, not sure how any business owner can be proud of that, personally I’d be ashamed.

    So what has been done to investigate the cause of these departures, and what steps have been introduced to improvise the organisational culture (outside of a free pizza slice)?
  • valleynick66
    valleynick66 Posts: 4,889
    edited October 2022
    Airman Brown said:
    Covered End said:k
    robroy said:
    All this talk of TS spending £20million is laughable, he paid £1million and we had £400k in the bank. He took a loan of £300k. These are only the things we now know about.

    what else has gone on? 

    We are in serious trouble by the sounds of things 
    Robroy the accounts were out last week.
    We saw them, presumably you did not.
    They are what we know about. They are fact.
    TS has loaned I think it was £16M in 2 years and is probably in for about £20M now (at a guess).
    This why it wouldn't be a massive surprise if ideally he wanted £25M because he'll have possibly lent that amount by the time a sale is concluded (don't believe he'll get anywhere near that).

    That figure of £16m is current to the end of September. Only £12m of it had been put into the club six months ago. £1.15m of it was also spent on acquiring the club, which had £400k in its coffers. TS used a figure of £20m recently - there’s no other evidence for it. It might represent a projection to the end of the season, although we know he made £2m in transfer profit over the summer.

    There are people willing to help him walk away but he isn’t getting £25m, in my opinion. He can choose to carry on losing more money if he prefers that. He’s never going to succeed.
    What does this mean - in plain English please?
  • AFKABartram
    AFKABartram Posts: 57,825
    edited October 2022
    valleynick66 said:
    Airman Brown said:
    Covered End said:k
    robroy said:
    All this talk of TS spending £20million is laughable, he paid £1million and we had £400k in the bank. He took a loan of £300k. These are only the things we now know about.

    what else has gone on? 

    We are in serious trouble by the sounds of things 
    Robroy the accounts were out last week.
    We saw them, presumably you did not.
    They are what we know about. They are fact.
    TS has loaned I think it was £16M in 2 years and is probably in for about £20M now (at a guess).
    This why it wouldn't be a massive surprise if ideally he wanted £25M because he'll have possibly lent that amount by the time a sale is concluded (don't believe he'll get anywhere near that).

    That figure of £16m is current to the end of September. Only £12m of it had been put into the club six months ago. £1.15m of it was also spent on acquiring the club, which had £400k in its coffers. TS used a figure of £20m recently - there’s no other evidence for it. It might represent a projection to the end of the season, although we know he made £2m in transfer profit over the summer.

    There are people willing to help him walk away but he isn’t getting £25m, in my opinion. He can choose to carry on losing more money if he prefers that. He’s never going to succeed.
    What does this mean - in plain English please?
    There are willing parties wishing to take over but won’t be paying much for it or repaying those loans
  • CafcSCP
    CafcSCP Posts: 1,464
    EugenesAxe said:
    JamesSeed said:
    Would this all be happening if we were top two or three?
    Oh I’m sure there would be something.
    Perhaps we should look at this slightly differently.
    why aren’t we top two or three?
    Should TS have actually spent some transfer funds?
    Would we be up the top if he had?

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