....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
Cameron and all our political classes have not got the guts to do what ordinary UK citizens feel is right.
Quote · Like LOL
I am not sure about that, I think that Putin has really pushed things way too far with this and its very much a case of this being the straw that broke the Camel's back.
Its one thing him invading Georgia/Ukraine and pissing about in his own backyard - in which the West has little interest - but when his actions lead to jet-liners getting blown out of the sky then that is absolutely a tipping point.
More than anything else who know what other nutters Putin has allowed these weapons to reach? Unless he brings these lunatics into line - and its a bit late now anyway - then who knows what else they could get up to?
The Russian oligarchs in London have plenty of money but not much political cache, they use expensive PR firms like Bell Pottinger to fluff up their image but all political parties know that punishing the Russian oligarchs will cost them nothing at the ballot box and Cameron might see this as a real political opportunity given next year's election.
In which the West had little interest? The West supported the Ukrainian uprising and for NATO reasons the West and the EU had significant interest already.
In the sense of having little interest in doing something meaningful about it.
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
Cameron and all our political classes have not got the guts to do what ordinary UK citizens feel is right.
Quote · Like LOL
I am not sure about that, I think that Putin has really pushed things way too far with this and its very much a case of this being the straw that broke the Camel's back.
Its one thing him invading Georgia/Ukraine and pissing about in his own backyard - in which the West has little interest - but when his actions lead to jet-liners getting blown out of the sky then that is absolutely a tipping point.
More than anything else who know what other nutters Putin has allowed these weapons to reach? Unless he brings these lunatics into line - and its a bit late now anyway - then who knows what else they could get up to?
The Russian oligarchs in London have plenty of money but not much political cache, they use expensive PR firms like Bell Pottinger to fluff up their image but all political parties know that punishing the Russian oligarchs will cost them nothing at the ballot box and Cameron might see this as a real political opportunity given next year's election.
Whilst I'd very much like to see Roman et al have sanctions imposed, or at least their finances scrutinised much more intensly, I fear that the threat of tit for tat action with UK businesses in Moscow will preclude any meaningful action.
That is true and has to be factored in - but has to be balanced against the cost and risk of doing nothing.
All I can tell you for a fact is that the government in Australia (not a heavy hitter) is utterly furious about what has happened and are demanding Putin take appropriate action.
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
Cameron and all our political classes have not got the guts to do what ordinary UK citizens feel is right.
Quote · Like LOL
I am not sure about that, I think that Putin has really pushed things way too far with this and its very much a case of this being the straw that broke the Camel's back.
Its one thing him invading Georgia/Ukraine and pissing about in his own backyard - in which the West has little interest - but when his actions lead to jet-liners getting blown out of the sky then that is absolutely a tipping point.
More than anything else who know what other nutters Putin has allowed these weapons to reach? Unless he brings these lunatics into line - and its a bit late now anyway - then who knows what else they could get up to?
The Russian oligarchs in London have plenty of money but not much political cache, they use expensive PR firms like Bell Pottinger to fluff up their image but all political parties know that punishing the Russian oligarchs will cost them nothing at the ballot box and Cameron might see this as a real political opportunity given next year's election.
Whilst I'd very much like to see Roman et al have sanctions imposed, or at least their finances scrutinised much more intensly, I fear that the threat of tit for tat action with UK businesses in Moscow will preclude any meaningful action.
That is true and has to be factored in - but has to be balanced against the cost and risk of doing nothing.
All I can tell you for a fact is that the government in Australia (not a heavy hitter) is utterly furious about what has happened and are demanding Putin take appropriate action.
As are the Dutch, and they punch above their weight in the EU.
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
or when Russia shot down a Korean aircraft - believe with a fighter jet.
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
or when Russia shot down a Korean aircraft - believe with a fighter jet.
Agreed. What was the response to Russia after that incident? Should it be different this time?
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
or when Russia shot down a Korean aircraft - believe with a fighter jet.
The Russians have shot down Korean airliners TWICE!
The first time the plane landed on an iced lake in Siberia and most survived, the second time everyone was killed.
To this day the Russian fighter pilot insists that the Korean Air passenger jet he shot down was a "military flight" - I guess he has to keep telling himself that.
This occasion is different because it was shot down from the ground and not by a fighter jet.
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
or when Russia shot down a Korean aircraft - believe with a fighter jet.
Agreed. What was the response to Russia after that incident? Should it be different this time?
Here is the disgraceful incident of the USS VIncennes shooting down the Iran Air passenger plane...
Dreadful situation but I can't see what can be done against Putin other than hitting the oligarchs as suggested by Prague. Will the west have the balls and will to do this and risk escalating the situation ? Sorry I can't see it. There will be a thousand mealy mouthed political words spoken and when all the dust has settled fuck all will be done.
If I remember rightly, when the violence began in the Crimea, one of David Camerons aides was photographed entering Downing Street with some documents. When the photograph was examined the documents clearly advised against any financial investigations due to the impact it may have on the City and our economy...
I may well be wrong, but this sounds familiar.
I really don't think you can get that much from a photograph of some one holding something. Unless they were holding it right up to the camera
I found the article, and it appears the photo was actually over the shoulder - and of the document only!
UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London
Government document photographed outside No 10 states that 'London's financial centre' should not be closed to Russians
I think, (life has taught me this), those with the money will remain those with the money. The UK will not do anything other than talk and make the right noise. We seldom cut off our nose to spite our face. I would like to be wrong but I cant see anything else we can do.
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
I hope the government will take action, but the Tories need to be pushed on this. One difficulty is that the ridiculous "non-dom" status we have offered has encouraged people of dubious wealth from other countries as well as Russia to swan around London, as you rightly put it. Some of them are Ukrainian. One, indeed was being courted by a consortium to buy Charlton from the last shower, but he was never really locked in, and the turmoil in Ukraine put an end to it. Ironically I was told that he is friendly with RA. So the political problem becomes, how do you justify targeting RA over tax matters and not the Ukrainians or Arabs? This is a problem of Osborne's making, courting such dubious money, and I have no faith in him to address it.
Osbornes making? so they have come over here in the last 4 years then?
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
For the families who lost people there would be very little difference, but the US did do it mistakenly and paid compensation. It does not bring back relatives but is, at least, an admission of guilt. I somehow doubt the same will happen in this instance.
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
I hope the government will take action, but the Tories need to be pushed on this. One difficulty is that the ridiculous "non-dom" status we have offered has encouraged people of dubious wealth from other countries as well as Russia to swan around London, as you rightly put it. Some of them are Ukrainian. One, indeed was being courted by a consortium to buy Charlton from the last shower, but he was never really locked in, and the turmoil in Ukraine put an end to it. Ironically I was told that he is friendly with RA. So the political problem becomes, how do you justify targeting RA over tax matters and not the Ukrainians or Arabs? This is a problem of Osborne's making, courting such dubious money, and I have no faith in him to address it.
Osbornes making? so they have come over here in the last 4 years then?
In the case of the Ukrainian I mentioned, in the last 12 months
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
For the families who lost people there would be very little difference, but the US did do it mistakenly and paid compensation. It does not bring back relatives but is, at least, an admission of guilt. I somehow doubt the same will happen in this instance.
Are you saying that the Malaysian aircraft was deliberately shot down rather than been mistaken for a Ukranian military plane? j
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
I hope the government will take action, but the Tories need to be pushed on this. One difficulty is that the ridiculous "non-dom" status we have offered has encouraged people of dubious wealth from other countries as well as Russia to swan around London, as you rightly put it. Some of them are Ukrainian. One, indeed was being courted by a consortium to buy Charlton from the last shower, but he was never really locked in, and the turmoil in Ukraine put an end to it. Ironically I was told that he is friendly with RA. So the political problem becomes, how do you justify targeting RA over tax matters and not the Ukrainians or Arabs? This is a problem of Osborne's making, courting such dubious money, and I have no faith in him to address it.
Osbornes making? so they have come over here in the last 4 years then?
In the case of the Ukrainian I mentioned, in the last 12 months
ok, fair enough. Problem is I guess that as soon as we start doing that, BP and other oil company staff get arrested on trumped up charges and the company assets seized. I still think we should do it though. Anyone that suggests these oligarchs are in no way connected to Putin has been watching too much Russia Today.
Is the unavailability of the full BBC website for the past two days in any way connected with this? cyber attack perhaps?
I have forgotten but what action did the world take against the US when an Iranian civilian aircraft was shot down mistakenly by a US missile killing 290 people? In what way are the two scenarios different?
For the families who lost people there would be very little difference, but the US did do it mistakenly and paid compensation. It does not bring back relatives but is, at least, an admission of guilt. I somehow doubt the same will happen in this instance.
Are you saying that the Malaysian aircraft was deliberately shot down rather than been mistaken for a Ukranian military plane? j
I'm saying I doubt anyone knows why some evil git shot it down, and even if it was by mistake, I have not heard any apology or compensation offer. In fact I have not heard anyone even admit fault.
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
I hope the government will take action, but the Tories need to be pushed on this. One difficulty is that the ridiculous "non-dom" status we have offered has encouraged people of dubious wealth from other countries as well as Russia to swan around London, as you rightly put it. Some of them are Ukrainian. One, indeed was being courted by a consortium to buy Charlton from the last shower, but he was never really locked in, and the turmoil in Ukraine put an end to it. Ironically I was told that he is friendly with RA. So the political problem becomes, how do you justify targeting RA over tax matters and not the Ukrainians or Arabs? This is a problem of Osborne's making, courting such dubious money, and I have no faith in him to address it.
Osbornes making? so they have come over here in the last 4 years then?
In the case of the Ukrainian I mentioned, in the last 12 months
ok, fair enough. Problem is I guess that as soon as we start doing that, BP and other oil company staff get arrested on trumped up charges and the company assets seized. I still think we should do it though. Anyone that suggests these oligarchs are in no way connected to Putin has been watching too much Russia Today.
Is the unavailability of the full BBC website for the past two days in any way connected with this? cyber attack perhaps?
It's true that this government did not invent non-dom status. It may well have been New Labour, they were just as bad. However a couple of years ago Cameron and Osborne started banging on about tax avoidance, and have done nothing, while more and more of these types have taken advantage of it.
You are right that if we publicly announce all kinds of sanctions, the Russians retaliate, and Putin winds the people up in patriotic fervor as well. That's why I would move against Abramovic unannounced. You whack Putin in the balls, but he can't go whining to his public, because they hate (edit) Abramovic too.
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
I hope the government will take action, but the Tories need to be pushed on this. One difficulty is that the ridiculous "non-dom" status we have offered has encouraged people of dubious wealth from other countries as well as Russia to swan around London, as you rightly put it. Some of them are Ukrainian. One, indeed was being courted by a consortium to buy Charlton from the last shower, but he was never really locked in, and the turmoil in Ukraine put an end to it. Ironically I was told that he is friendly with RA. So the political problem becomes, how do you justify targeting RA over tax matters and not the Ukrainians or Arabs? This is a problem of Osborne's making, courting such dubious money, and I have no faith in him to address it.
Osbornes making? so they have come over here in the last 4 years then?
In the case of the Ukrainian I mentioned, in the last 12 months
ok, fair enough. Problem is I guess that as soon as we start doing that, BP and other oil company staff get arrested on trumped up charges and the company assets seized. I still think we should do it though. Anyone that suggests these oligarchs are in no way connected to Putin has been watching too much Russia Today.
Is the unavailability of the full BBC website for the past two days in any way connected with this? cyber attack perhaps?
It's true that this government did not invent non-dom status. It may well have been New Labour, they were just as bad. However a couple of years ago Cameron and Osborne started banging on about tax avoidance, and have done nothing,
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
In that article Kaplan says 'Putin contrived the separatist rebellion...'! What utter nonsense. Is he saying that the population in eastern Ukraine was happy that the democratically elected government that they overwhelmingly supported was overthrown by foreign backed fascists? It is not only Putin who is guilty of mis-judgement in this mess. When the western powers supported the fascists in west Ukraine and allowed it to overthrow the democratically elected government they completely underestimated the level of antipathy towards the fascists by the populations in Crimea and the East.
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
In that article Kaplan says 'Putin contrived the separatist rebellion...'! What utter nonsense. Is he saying that the population in eastern Ukraine was happy that the democratically elected government that they overwhelmingly supported was overthrown by foreign backed fascists? It is not only Putin who is guilty of mis-judgement in this mess. When the western powers supported the fascists in west Ukraine and allowed it to overthrow the democratically elected government they completely underestimated the level of antipathy towards the fascists by the populations in Crimea and the East.
That is his view and to be honest I am not really across all of the details of what is going on in Ukraine, you could well be right.
The salient point in terms of the Malaysian Airlines shoot-down is that this level of gear needs professional operation, it can't be done by some pissed up kid on his own.
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
If this was a BUK missile system captured from the Ukrainians - which seems most likely - it wouldn't take that much knowledge to lock onto a target and launch a SA-11 missile. Don't forget this is 40 year old technology. The missile itself is radar guided as well and doesn't actually need to strike the aircraft.
The real skill in using this type of system is the 'command' element (identifying multiple targets, chosing targets to hit and firing the SA-11s at those targets) and the 'logistic' element which is basically the chosing of different missile types and their re-loading ontot the launcher.
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
If this was a BUK missile system captured from the Ukrainians - which seems most likely - it wouldn't take that much knowledge to lock onto a target and launch a SA-11 missile. Don't forget this is 40 year old technology. The missile itself is radar guided as well and doesn't actually need to strike the aircraft.
The real skill in using this type of system is the 'command' element (identifying multiple targets, chosing targets to hit and firing the SA-11s at those targets) and the 'logistic' element which is basically the chosing of different missile types and their re-loading ontot the launcher.
You may be right - but that is not what the article says.
....the bottom line is that these people are currently swanning around London with their ill-gotten gains precisely because Putin gives them protection - if Cameron is serious about this and starts freezing their assets and making life uncomfortable then the game starts to change.
I hope the government will take action, but the Tories need to be pushed on this. One difficulty is that the ridiculous "non-dom" status we have offered has encouraged people of dubious wealth from other countries as well as Russia to swan around London, as you rightly put it. Some of them are Ukrainian. One, indeed was being courted by a consortium to buy Charlton from the last shower, but he was never really locked in, and the turmoil in Ukraine put an end to it. Ironically I was told that he is friendly with RA. So the political problem becomes, how do you justify targeting RA over tax matters and not the Ukrainians or Arabs? This is a problem of Osborne's making, courting such dubious money, and I have no faith in him to address it.
Osbornes making? so they have come over here in the last 4 years then?
In the case of the Ukrainian I mentioned, in the last 12 months
ok, fair enough. Problem is I guess that as soon as we start doing that, BP and other oil company staff get arrested on trumped up charges and the company assets seized. I still think we should do it though. Anyone that suggests these oligarchs are in no way connected to Putin has been watching too much Russia Today.
Is the unavailability of the full BBC website for the past two days in any way connected with this? cyber attack perhaps?
It's true that this government did not invent non-dom status. It may well have been New Labour, they were just as bad. However a couple of years ago Cameron and Osborne started banging on about tax avoidance, and have done nothing,
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
In that article Kaplan says 'Putin contrived the separatist rebellion...'! What utter nonsense. Is he saying that the population in eastern Ukraine was happy that the democratically elected government that they overwhelmingly supported was overthrown by foreign backed fascists? It is not only Putin who is guilty of mis-judgement in this mess. When the western powers supported the fascists in west Ukraine and allowed it to overthrow the democratically elected government they completely underestimated the level of antipathy towards the fascists by the populations in Crimea and the East.
Your view of the "Maidan" revolution is one which fits exactly that of Russia Today and what are called Putinbots, those who invade the comments section of the Guardian. I hope you didn't just read that shit and decide they were right.
There are certainly some nasty elements in the current Ukraine government. There also some very reasonable people who want the same kind of life (rights, protection) that we enjoy in the UK. The previous government, whose main political power base was indeed in East Ukraine, thieved billions from its own people. Most importantly it had no democratic mandate to tear up its election commitment promise to move the country closer to the EU, and instead join Putin's dodgy Eurasian "community".
It is complicated, you have an intractably divided country, but beware Russian propaganda which is skillfully presented.
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
In that article Kaplan says 'Putin contrived the separatist rebellion...'! What utter nonsense. Is he saying that the population in eastern Ukraine was happy that the democratically elected government that they overwhelmingly supported was overthrown by foreign backed fascists? It is not only Putin who is guilty of mis-judgement in this mess. When the western powers supported the fascists in west Ukraine and allowed it to overthrow the democratically elected government they completely underestimated the level of antipathy towards the fascists by the populations in Crimea and the East.
Your view of the "Maidan" revolution is one which fits exactly that of Russia Today and what are called Putinbots, those who invade the comments section of the Guardian. I hope you didn't just read that shit and decide they were right.
There are certainly some nasty elements in the current Ukraine government. There also some very reasonable people who want the same kind of life (rights, protection) that we enjoy in the UK. The previous government, whose main political power base was indeed in East Ukraine, thieved billions from its own people. Most importantly it had no democratic mandate to tear up its election commitment promise to move the country closer to the EU, and instead join Putin's dodgy Eurasian "community".
It is complicated, you have an intractably divided country, but beware Russian propaganda which is skillfully presented.
I don't read the comments section of the Guardian. My views are based on reading, listening and watching a range of media coverage of this specific conflict. And then applying the prism of what I have learned about how similar conflict scenarios have started and played out in the last 100 years based on the historical analysis of those events which are usually closer to the truth then the commentaries at the time.
The West, in the past, has not been averse to giving support to despots who steal millions from their own people so what was different about the previous Ukraine government. You are right, it had no democratic right to tear up its election commitments but does that justify the West supporting the violent overthrow of that government and in effect engineering regime change?
I am very conscious of Russian propaganda on this issue. But, I am also very aware, and insulted (how stupid do they think people are?), by the nonsense coming from our political leaders, in Europe and the US and large sections of the respected media in the UK, Europe and the US.
I'm appalled. In the last two posts, a serious discussion appears to have broken out in amongst the usual rhetoric, mud slinging and childish name calling. This can't be allowed to continue. Just for balance, I'd like to throw in some crass remarks about the plane being shot down, some ill-informed comments on the political situation in the Crimea and a rant about it being Thatcher's fault. Oh - and a picture of Yulia Timoshenko's funbags with 'would ya' written underneath.
Seriously though - crack on, it's good to see an informed, intelligent debate.
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
In that article Kaplan says 'Putin contrived the separatist rebellion...'! What utter nonsense. Is he saying that the population in eastern Ukraine was happy that the democratically elected government that they overwhelmingly supported was overthrown by foreign backed fascists? It is not only Putin who is guilty of mis-judgement in this mess. When the western powers supported the fascists in west Ukraine and allowed it to overthrow the democratically elected government they completely underestimated the level of antipathy towards the fascists by the populations in Crimea and the East.
Your view of the "Maidan" revolution is one which fits exactly that of Russia Today and what are called Putinbots, those who invade the comments section of the Guardian. I hope you didn't just read that shit and decide they were right.
There are certainly some nasty elements in the current Ukraine government. There also some very reasonable people who want the same kind of life (rights, protection) that we enjoy in the UK. The previous government, whose main political power base was indeed in East Ukraine, thieved billions from its own people. Most importantly it had no democratic mandate to tear up its election commitment promise to move the country closer to the EU, and instead join Putin's dodgy Eurasian "community".
It is complicated, you have an intractably divided country, but beware Russian propaganda which is skillfully presented.
I don't read the comments section of the Guardian. My views are based on reading, listening and watching a range of media coverage of this specific conflict. And then applying the prism of what I have learned about how similar conflict scenarios have started and played out in the last 100 years based on the historical analysis of those events which are usually closer to the truth then the commentaries at the time.
The West, in the past, has not been averse to giving support to despots who steal millions from their own people so what was different about the previous Ukraine government. You are right, it had no democratic right to tear up its election commitments but does that justify the West supporting the violent overthrow of that government and in effect engineering regime change?
I am very conscious of Russian propaganda on this issue. But, I am also very aware, and insulted (how stupid do they think people are?), by the nonsense coming from our political leaders, in Europe and the US and large sections of the respected media in the UK, Europe and the US.
Okay then, present your evidence to support "the fascists" assertion. I'd like to see it. Because, apart from the right-wing bit, Putin and his thugs in Russia fit the definition of fascists pretty well.
Comments
All I can tell you for a fact is that the government in Australia (not a heavy hitter) is utterly furious about what has happened and are demanding Putin take appropriate action.
The first time the plane landed on an iced lake in Siberia and most survived, the second time everyone was killed.
To this day the Russian fighter pilot insists that the Korean Air passenger jet he shot down was a "military flight" - I guess he has to keep telling himself that.
This occasion is different because it was shot down from the ground and not by a fighter jet.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
I think, (life has taught me this), those with the money will remain those with the money.
The UK will not do anything other than talk and make the right noise. We seldom cut off our nose to spite our face.
I would like to be wrong but I cant see anything else we can do.
j
Is the unavailability of the full BBC website for the past two days in any way connected with this? cyber attack perhaps?
You are right that if we publicly announce all kinds of sanctions, the Russians retaliate, and Putin winds the people up in patriotic fervor as well. That's why I would move against Abramovic unannounced. You whack Putin in the balls, but he can't go whining to his public, because they hate (edit) Abramovic too.
Check out this superb commentary from The Economist on the folly of Putin's conduct in Ukraine - this was written BEFORE the MH17 tragedy.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21603483-russian-presidents-strategy-towards-ukraine-and-west-may-not-have-worked-well-he?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07
As the piece says Putin has been too clever by half and must now suffer the harsh rebound of unintended consequences.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/vladimir_putin_is_responsible_for_the_malaysia_airlines_flight_17_disaster.html
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
Possibly with 'advisors' close at hand.
The salient point in terms of the Malaysian Airlines shoot-down is that this level of gear needs professional operation, it can't be done by some pissed up kid on his own.
The real skill in using this type of system is the 'command' element (identifying multiple targets, chosing targets to hit and firing the SA-11s at those targets) and the 'logistic' element which is basically the chosing of different missile types and their re-loading ontot the launcher.
I am certainly no expert on military hardware!
There are certainly some nasty elements in the current Ukraine government. There also some very reasonable people who want the same kind of life (rights, protection) that we enjoy in the UK. The previous government, whose main political power base was indeed in East Ukraine, thieved billions from its own people. Most importantly it had no democratic mandate to tear up its election commitment promise to move the country closer to the EU, and instead join Putin's dodgy Eurasian "community".
It is complicated, you have an intractably divided country, but beware Russian propaganda which is skillfully presented.
The West, in the past, has not been averse to giving support to despots who steal millions from their own people so what was different about the previous Ukraine government. You are right, it had no democratic right to tear up its election commitments but does that justify the West supporting the violent overthrow of that government and in effect engineering regime change?
I am very conscious of Russian propaganda on this issue. But, I am also very aware, and insulted (how stupid do they think people are?), by the nonsense coming from our political leaders, in Europe and the US and large sections of the respected media in the UK, Europe and the US.
Seriously though - crack on, it's good to see an informed, intelligent debate.