. Most importantly it had no democratic mandate to tear up its election commitment promise to move the country closer to the EU, and instead join Putin's dodgy Eurasian "community".
Prague - since when have election promises and manifesto bluster mattered in any country?
it was clearly some absolute muppet kid who thought he'd be billy big bollocks and shoot down what he thought was a Ukrainian jet to show off to his mates he could use the machine and gain some street cred for helping the rebellion. For me it's pretty obvious a lot of people have got a right good bollocking but of course Putin and the others arent going to admit that and try and cover their backs to look all "big and powerful".
The shooting down may have been a mistake but this sort of equipment simply cannot be used by "some absolute muppet kid" you are talking about serious technologically advanced military hardware.
Nobody knows what happened exactly - and we may never know the full story - but whoever did this was no amateur.
In that article Kaplan says 'Putin contrived the separatist rebellion...'! What utter nonsense. Is he saying that the population in eastern Ukraine was happy that the democratically elected government that they overwhelmingly supported was overthrown by foreign backed fascists? It is not only Putin who is guilty of mis-judgement in this mess. When the western powers supported the fascists in west Ukraine and allowed it to overthrow the democratically elected government they completely underestimated the level of antipathy towards the fascists by the populations in Crimea and the East.
Your view of the "Maidan" revolution is one which fits exactly that of Russia Today and what are called Putinbots, those who invade the comments section of the Guardian. I hope you didn't just read that shit and decide they were right.
There are certainly some nasty elements in the current Ukraine government. There also some very reasonable people who want the same kind of life (rights, protection) that we enjoy in the UK. The previous government, whose main political power base was indeed in East Ukraine, thieved billions from its own people. Most importantly it had no democratic mandate to tear up its election commitment promise to move the country closer to the EU, and instead join Putin's dodgy Eurasian "community".
It is complicated, you have an intractably divided country, but beware Russian propaganda which is skillfully presented.
I don't read the comments section of the Guardian. My views are based on reading, listening and watching a range of media coverage of this specific conflict. And then applying the prism of what I have learned about how similar conflict scenarios have started and played out in the last 100 years based on the historical analysis of those events which are usually closer to the truth then the commentaries at the time.
The West, in the past, has not been averse to giving support to despots who steal millions from their own people so what was different about the previous Ukraine government. You are right, it had no democratic right to tear up its election commitments but does that justify the West supporting the violent overthrow of that government and in effect engineering regime change?
I am very conscious of Russian propaganda on this issue. But, I am also very aware, and insulted (how stupid do they think people are?), by the nonsense coming from our political leaders, in Europe and the US and large sections of the respected media in the UK, Europe and the US.
Okay then, present your evidence to support "the fascists" assertion. I'd like to see it. Because, apart from the right-wing bit, Putin and his thugs in Russia fit the definition of fascists pretty well.
As I state above I base my views on a range of media. Admittedly I favour media and commentators that I have come to trust over the years (Independent, The Guardian, The Times, the NYT, the Daily Beast) and that I know have a similar world view to mine.
Here are some articles printed in January this year that now seem remarkably precient.
I do understand that in Eastern Ukraine they have always been pro Russia. I can't dig out the exact reference but there is an excellent film by a German director which I think is just called Shaktar, from around 2004, which portrays this. It also though portrays how the previous regime and oligarch friends shamelessly milked football for political purposes. It's on You Tube.
On the other hand my Physio is from Lvov(Lviv). She actually despaired of the West seriously helping Ukraine, i.e. Setting them on the path to EU membership, and has actually applied for asylum in Czech. I think her case is pretty dubious, but that is the extent of how despairing young educated people in the Western part have become.
When I get back to Prague I will let my Physio , mentioned above, know that according to a Mr E. Synon, she has actually been dragged into the Czech Republic against her will by the EU. It will give me the opportunity to teach her a new English phrase, " a load of bollocks"
When I get back to Prague I will let my Physio , mentioned above, know that according to a Mr E. Synon, she has actually been dragged into the Czech Republic against her will by the EU. It will give me the opportunity to teach her a new English phrase, " a load of bollocks"
Prague,
ME Synon is a woman and the point is that it is all too easy, and convenient for the West, to lay the sole blame at Putin's door. Nobody is stating that he is innocent or whiter than white but there are other forces and factors at work too.
No problem to agree with the point you outline above.
However Ms. M E Synon chooses to wrap it up in some gratuitous barb against the EU ( presumably a prerequisite for that publication on that website.) she talks about the "expansionist" EU. I find this objectionable for several reasons:
1. The most aggressive voices have come from the US and the UK, followed understandably by the Dutch and the Aussies. the Germans have been silent.
2. The most bellicose UK newspapers are also the most Europhobic ones. funny, that.
3. Regarding the expansionist bollocks, and it really is bollocks, the British really need to understand that in Kiev and Lvov, most young people dream of life as EU citizens, and these are not another bunch of sponging gypsies. many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
and these are not another bunch of sponging gypsies. .
That's OK then : - (
It was of course an ironic remark. The day before the accession of the Czech Republic to the EU I happened to be at home at my Mum's and her Daily Mail was informing her of the Tidal Wave of Czech Gypsies which was about to engulf the UK. I regularly ask her if that Tidal Wave has engulfed her yet.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
Sorry Peanuts but I don't recognize your version of events. the young educated people of Kiev and West Ukraine didn't need any "EU encouragement" to demonstrate against Yanukovic, and his theft of billions of pounds of their money, which is what that was all about. They simply see the EU countries as broadly excellent examples for their own country. In particular, when it comes to the justice system, they admire Britain, as do most of the former Soviet satellite countries.
If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
It's just that Prague's preferred attire is a folded up copy of The Guardian and a pair of sandals.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
It's just that Prague's preferred attire is a folded up copy of The Guardian and a pair of sandals.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
I can't easily copy and paste on this bloody iPad in the right place, but in answer to your first point, you wrote
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement.
and
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear
Which I took to mean that you support the view of Len's correspondent, who writes for a website where virtually everything wrong in daily life is considered to be the fault of the EU. The UKIP view of daily life
Hard to watch the news tonight with the coffins returning to the Netherlands. The parents who lost their 3 kids and parent must be going through a living hell.
I think it safe to say that the EU and successive Ukrainian rulers have been moving towards the Ukraine joining the EU for decades. It is a complex part of the world with a very different 20th century experience to ourselves in the West. I would suggest we continue the debate and share links to publications, historical and current. But perhaps restrict the rhetoric in respect of a much bigger picture and of course the dead returning to the Netherlands. In short we should use this as an opportunity to educate ourselves about the history and possible futures as there is a very big chess game being played out... as we see from yesterday's news about the Litvinenko public enquiry. If the West and/or Putin screws up their calculations it will get very messy... So I is hoping for a draw
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
I can't easily copy and paste on this bloody iPad in the right place, but in answer to your first point, you wrote
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement.
and
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear
Which I took to mean that you support the view of Len's correspondent, who writes for a website where virtually everything wrong in daily life is considered to be the fault of the EU. The UKIP view of daily life
Sorry Prague, I'm as left wing as they come and a million miles from UKIP but from my understanding at the very least the West "encouraged" the coup in Ukraine and I've come to that conclusion from reading multiple news sources. What is causing you to deny that little Willie Hague and the Americans didn't gleefully encourage and potentially arm the illegal government change?
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
I can't easily copy and paste on this bloody iPad in the right place, but in answer to your first point, you wrote
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement.
and
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear
Which I took to mean that you support the view of Len's correspondent, who writes for a website where virtually everything wrong in daily life is considered to be the fault of the EU. The UKIP view of daily life
I know what I wrote Prague. I wasn't commenting on Len's correspondent. Whether I agree with her or not is beside the point. I was commenting on your point, which I specifically edited from your post, about the highly-educated nature of many of Ukrainian's younger generations and what they are seeking, with which I agree. For the reasons you cite, they have looked West for their future and were greatly encouraged to do so by the EU and indeed the US. NATO membership was even mooted in the past by some in the West. It is a profound mistake by the West not to appreciate that this (to which he evidently would view an EU Agreement as a potential stepping stone) would unnerve and provoke Putin, but then Western leaders have patently misread Putin from the start. I'm talking about moral encouragement when Ukrainians rose up against Yanukovych, largely responding to the violence shown in attempting to suppress them but clear encouragement nonetheless.I did not claim they had made the explicit statements of the sort you put in my mouth but there was, certainly in the UK, considerable moral support of the uprising and satisfaction when Yanukovych fled and it would seem highly probable now that the invitation you cite (or something along the lines thereof) is precisely what Putin thought was being proffered, rightly or wrongly. At least when sober, I take some care when writing posts and somewhat object when people ascribe views to me which I have not espoused.
PS I have never worn a bowler hat and know nobody, regardless of political persuasion, who does and I certainly wear nobody's badge.
Look, you can argue this back and forth about which government did what, and as the Sex Pistols put it, no one is innocent, but it looks increasingly clear that Russia is/was supplying high tech weapons to it's allies, and they used them to kill 298 civilians flying overhead. To me, that changes the balance dramatically and it's impossible to equate that with whatever the EU did or did not say.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
I can't easily copy and paste on this bloody iPad in the right place, but in answer to your first point, you wrote
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement.
and
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear
Which I took to mean that you support the view of Len's correspondent, who writes for a website where virtually everything wrong in daily life is considered to be the fault of the EU. The UKIP view of daily life
Sorry Prague, I'm as left wing as they come and a million miles from UKIP but from my understanding at the very least the West "encouraged" the coup in Ukraine and I've come to that conclusion from reading multiple news sources. What is causing you to deny that little Willie Hague and the Americans didn't gleefully encourage and potentially arm the illegal government change?
I am sorry that I appear to have offended posters whose views I respect. I will try to concentrate on a central point which comes from personal experience of coming face to face with the human fall out from both this and the Balkan wars in the 90s. The people I met were clearly not stirred up by the West. They did not need to be. They were very angry about the way their own countries were being run ( in the Balkan cases because they feared for their very existence.) Separately they supposed and hoped that the people of countries like the UK would support them, in general terms, because they suppose that we live In a country where we are disgusted by corrupt politicians and religious genocide (in the Balkan case).
I am also always affected by the case of the country where I live, one of whose citizens I have married. We stitched up the Czechs twice. Once in 1938, and again in 1968, when we stood by as Russian tanks crushed a non violent move towards a normal democratic society. Finally of course because people like my wife stood up to riot police on 17 November 1989, countries like hers are no longer considered enemies of the UK.
I suppose in summary I am asking for a starting point that the Ukrainians who wanted to overthrow Yanukovic were not just manipulated by the West, but were bloody angry, as we would be in their shoes.
Specifically I am sorry if you feel I willfully misinterpreted your view, but I'm genuinely trying to work out what action exactly the EU took which you consider mistaken.
It's established that Yanukovic was voted in with a mandate to sign an accession agreement with the EU. Do you assert that the EU should never have offered it I the first place?
The other aspect of this is that the EU is widely criticized and rightly, for not having a coherent foreign policy. But that is hardly surprising when 27 countries have to agree. So I believe that various national politicians may have encouraged various Ukrainian politicians, and when it backfired they hid behind "the EU".
I have never imagined you to be a UKIP supporter, and I also have the highest respect for Len Glover's views. UKIP itself, that's another matter
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
....If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU"....
That's not what I said and nor is it my version of events.
..... many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
Isn't that somewhat the point though Prague? These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason. The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President. But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers". The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future. The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
......If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
What's a UKIP badge and a bowler hat got to do with anything?
I can't easily copy and paste on this bloody iPad in the right place, but in answer to your first point, you wrote
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement.
and
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear
Which I took to mean that you support the view of Len's correspondent, who writes for a website where virtually everything wrong in daily life is considered to be the fault of the EU. The UKIP view of daily life
Sorry Prague, I'm as left wing as they come and a million miles from UKIP but from my understanding at the very least the West "encouraged" the coup in Ukraine and I've come to that conclusion from reading multiple news sources. What is causing you to deny that little Willie Hague and the Americans didn't gleefully encourage and potentially arm the illegal government change?
.......a central point which comes from personal experience of coming face to face with the human fall out from both this and the Balkan wars in the 90s. The people I met were clearly not stirred up by the West. They did not need to be. They were very angry about the way their own countries were being run ( in the Balkan cases because they feared for their very existence.) Separately they supposed and hoped that the people of countries like the UK would support them, in general terms, because they suppose that we live In a country where we are disgusted by corrupt politicians and religious genocide (in the Balkan case).
I am also always affected by the case of the country where I live, one of whose citizens I have married. We stitched up the Czechs twice. Once in 1938, and again in 1968, when we stood by as Russian tanks crushed a non violent move towards a normal democratic society. Finally of course because people like my wife stood up to riot police on 17 November 1989, countries like hers are no longer considered enemies of the UK.
I suppose in summary I am asking for a starting point that the Ukrainians who wanted to overthrow Yanukovic were not just manipulated by the West, but were bloody angry, as we would be in their shoes.
Specifically I am sorry if you feel I willfully misinterpreted your view, but I'm genuinely trying to work out what action exactly the EU took which you consider mistaken.
It's established that Yanukovic was voted in with a mandate to sign an accession agreement with the EU. Do you assert that the EU should never have offered it I the first place?
The other aspect of this is that the EU is widely criticized and rightly, for not having a coherent foreign policy. But that is hardly surprising when 27 countries have to agree. So I believe that various national politicians may have encouraged various Ukrainian politicians, and when it backfired they hid behind "the EU".
I have never imagined you to be a UKIP supporter, and I also have the highest respect for Len Glover's views. UKIP itself, that's another matter
Forget about it Chief. I never thought you'd wilfully misinterpreted my view, just made unwarranted assumptions. It is what (the main) Western powers individually and the EU collectively have failed to do that is the problem: 1. They failed to appreciate the sensitivity of Russia to Ukraine getting closer to the West. Putin, evidently, saw an EU Agreement with Ukraine as taking one step along the road that could end up as full EU and NATO membership. I know that 20:20 hindsight is a wonderful thing but the West had misread Putin from the start and, as a result, failed to foresee an obvious risk to Ukrainian integrity and independence. Obvious because EU and NATO membership has been the final destination of the 3 Baltic States. No doubt, they thought that Putin had "permitted" that in 2004 so what would be the problem? But Ukraine hosted its Black Sea fleet FFS. Unless the West did some serious courting of Putin in advance, he would likely not happily contemplate his fleet harboured in a nation potentially about to commence an inexorable move to NATO membership. When Yanukovych was ousted, from Putin's perspective it was better to intervene sooner rather than later and take possession, directly or indirectly, of strategically vital territory. 2. They failed to respond meaningfully to Russia's flagrant breach of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, co-signed with UK and US, which guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine's borders. The comment applies as much to the EU as this was also a flagrant breach of international law to which all leading powers should have responded meaningfully. "Sanctions" against individuals deemed to be close to Putin are a laughable response and makes it clear to Putin and the Ukrainians (Western-oriented and pro-Russian alike) that the main Western powers and the EU are not prepared to pay the price of any meaningful sanctions. They, therefore, offer no deterrent to continued aggression against Ukrainian freedom and stability posed by Putin and his thugs. As I said, "all mouth and no trousers" and friends that I have that have close connections with Ukrainians in Lvov tell me that there is considerable disappointment at the lack of meaningful support from the main Western powers and the EU. BTW, I may or may not have sympathies with UKIP but what political party I (or anyone) support is surely completely irrelevant to the truth concerning this atrocious and shameful state of affairs. The irony is that we appear to be substantially in agreement. )
Comments
Here are some articles printed in January this year that now seem remarkably precient.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/22/ukraine-protests-europe-far-right-violence
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion
On the other hand my Physio is from Lvov(Lviv). She actually despaired of the West seriously helping Ukraine, i.e. Setting them on the path to EU membership, and has actually applied for asylum in Czech. I think her case is pretty dubious, but that is the extent of how despairing young educated people in the Western part have become.
When I get back to Prague I will let my Physio , mentioned above, know that according to a Mr E. Synon, she has actually been dragged into the Czech Republic against her will by the EU. It will give me the opportunity to teach her a new English phrase, " a load of bollocks"
ME Synon is a woman and the point is that it is all too easy, and convenient for the West, to lay the sole blame at Putin's door. Nobody is stating that he is innocent or whiter than white but there are other forces and factors at work too.
That's the point.
No problem to agree with the point you outline above.
However Ms. M E Synon chooses to wrap it up in some gratuitous barb against the EU ( presumably a prerequisite for that publication on that website.) she talks about the "expansionist" EU. I find this objectionable for several reasons:
1. The most aggressive voices have come from the US and the UK, followed understandably by the Dutch and the Aussies. the Germans have been silent.
2. The most bellicose UK newspapers are also the most Europhobic ones. funny, that.
3. Regarding the expansionist bollocks, and it really is bollocks, the British really need to understand that in Kiev and Lvov, most young people dream of life as EU citizens, and these are not another bunch of sponging gypsies. many young Ukrainians are formidably educated, and they are especially proficient in IT, in my experience. What they want is to live in a country where the rule of law protects rather than threatens them, and where thieving politicians are, sooner or later, held to account.
A plane has crashed in Tawain killing dozens after failing to make an emergency landing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28448763
These Ukrainians (many of whom are very talented and hard-working - more so than the average Brit in truth) feel very let down - betrayed even - by the EU and with good reason.
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement. He may have been a detestable bastard but he was the democratically elected President.
But the EU response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and (at the very least) giving support to the secessionist thugs in East Ukraine has been "all mouth but no trousers".
The EU has been in expansionist mode for years (until now)and didn't realise that they were playing with fire - or more accurately inviting others to play with fire. Now the main players simply don't want to pay the economic cost (whether higher energy costs for Germany or lost military orders for France or lost capital inflows for the UK) of meaningfully standing up for those who had been encouraged to believe that the EU was their future.
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear but now that the bear's turned nasty and got hold of them, it's (effectively) wet itself and run away.
If you can find me a shred of evidence that "The EU" (who exactly would that even be?) said to the Ukrainians " get shot of Yanukovic and you can join the EU", I will turn up at the Valley wearing a a UKIP badge and a bowler hat.
Associated Press Sparks Second MH17 Crash Fears With Awfully Worded Tweet
:-)
I can't easily copy and paste on this bloody iPad in the right place, but in answer to your first point, you wrote
The EU gave considerable encouragement ("power to the people" stuff) when they overthrew the Putin-puppet Yanukovych when he U-turned on signing the EU Agreement.
and
The EU encouraged the Ukrainians to prod the Russian bear
Which I took to mean that you support the view of Len's correspondent, who writes for a website where virtually everything wrong in daily life is considered to be the fault of the EU. The UKIP view of daily life
I would suggest we continue the debate and share links to publications, historical and current. But perhaps restrict the rhetoric in respect of a much bigger picture and of course the dead returning to the Netherlands.
In short we should use this as an opportunity to educate ourselves about the history and possible futures as there is a very big chess game being played out... as we see from yesterday's news about the Litvinenko public enquiry. If the West and/or Putin screws up their calculations it will get very messy... So I is hoping for a draw
For the reasons you cite, they have looked West for their future and were greatly encouraged to do so by the EU and indeed the US. NATO membership was even mooted in the past by some in the West. It is a profound mistake by the West not to appreciate that this (to which he evidently would view an EU Agreement as a potential stepping stone) would unnerve and provoke Putin, but then Western leaders have patently misread Putin from the start.
I'm talking about moral encouragement when Ukrainians rose up against Yanukovych, largely responding to the violence shown in attempting to suppress them but clear encouragement nonetheless.I did not claim they had made the explicit statements of the sort you put in my mouth but there was, certainly in the UK, considerable moral support of the uprising and satisfaction when Yanukovych fled and it would seem highly probable now that the invitation you cite (or something along the lines thereof) is precisely what Putin thought was being proffered, rightly or wrongly.
At least when sober, I take some care when writing posts and somewhat object when people ascribe views to me which I have not espoused.
PS I have never worn a bowler hat and know nobody, regardless of political persuasion, who does and I certainly wear nobody's badge.
I am also always affected by the case of the country where I live, one of whose citizens I have married. We stitched up the Czechs twice. Once in 1938, and again in 1968, when we stood by as Russian tanks crushed a non violent move towards a normal democratic society. Finally of course because people like my wife stood up to riot police on 17 November 1989, countries like hers are no longer considered enemies of the UK.
I suppose in summary I am asking for a starting point that the Ukrainians who wanted to overthrow Yanukovic were not just manipulated by the West, but were bloody angry, as we would be in their shoes.
Specifically I am sorry if you feel I willfully misinterpreted your view, but I'm genuinely trying to work out what action exactly the EU took which you consider mistaken.
It's established that Yanukovic was voted in with a mandate to sign an accession agreement with the EU. Do you assert that the EU should never have offered it I the first place?
The other aspect of this is that the EU is widely criticized and rightly, for not having a coherent foreign policy. But that is hardly surprising when 27 countries have to agree. So I believe that various national politicians may have encouraged various Ukrainian politicians, and when it backfired they hid behind "the EU".
I have never imagined you to be a UKIP supporter, and I also have the highest respect for Len Glover's views. UKIP itself, that's another matter
It is what (the main) Western powers individually and the EU collectively have failed to do that is the problem:
1. They failed to appreciate the sensitivity of Russia to Ukraine getting closer to the West. Putin, evidently, saw an EU Agreement with Ukraine as taking one step along the road that could end up as full EU and NATO membership. I know that 20:20 hindsight is a wonderful thing but the West had misread Putin from the start and, as a result, failed to foresee an obvious risk to Ukrainian integrity and independence. Obvious because EU and NATO membership has been the final destination of the 3 Baltic States. No doubt, they thought that Putin had "permitted" that in 2004 so what would be the problem? But Ukraine hosted its Black Sea fleet FFS. Unless the West did some serious courting of Putin in advance, he would likely not happily contemplate his fleet harboured in a nation potentially about to commence an inexorable move to NATO membership. When Yanukovych was ousted, from Putin's perspective it was better to intervene sooner rather than later and take possession, directly or indirectly, of strategically vital territory.
2. They failed to respond meaningfully to Russia's flagrant breach of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, co-signed with UK and US, which guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine's borders. The comment applies as much to the EU as this was also a flagrant breach of international law to which all leading powers should have responded meaningfully. "Sanctions" against individuals deemed to be close to Putin are a laughable response and makes it clear to Putin and the Ukrainians (Western-oriented and pro-Russian alike) that the main Western powers and the EU are not prepared to pay the price of any meaningful sanctions. They, therefore, offer no deterrent to continued aggression against Ukrainian freedom and stability posed by Putin and his thugs. As I said, "all mouth and no trousers" and friends that I have that have close connections with Ukrainians in Lvov tell me that there is considerable disappointment at the lack of meaningful support from the main Western powers and the EU.
BTW, I may or may not have sympathies with UKIP but what political party I (or anyone) support is surely completely irrelevant to the truth concerning this atrocious and shameful state of affairs.
The irony is that we appear to be substantially in agreement.